1 2 CITY COUNCIL 3 CITY OF NEW YORK 4 -------------------------------x 5 THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE MINUTES 6 of the 7 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 8 -------------------------------x 9 10 March 8, 2001 Start: 9:30 a.m. 11 Recess: 7:45 p.m. 12 City Hall Council Chambers 13 New York, New York 14 B E F O R E: 15 MARY PINKETT 16 Chairperson, 17 COUNCIL MEMBERS: Julia Harrison 18 Rivera John Sabini 19 Juanita Watkins Lloyd Henry 20 Adolpho Carrion Philip Reed 21 Eva Moskowitz Speaker Peter Vallone 22 23 24 LEGAL-EASE COURT REPORTING SERVICES, INC. 217 Broadway - Suite 511 25 New York, New York 10007 (800) 756-3410 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 2 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S 3 Speaker Peter Vallone 4 Speaker of the New York City Council 5 Ed Wallace, Esq. 6 Gene Russianoff Senior Attorney 7 New York Public Interest Research Group 8 Glenn Pasanen Associate Director 9 City Project 10 Richard Emery, Esq. 11 Paul Crotty, Esq. 12 Marshall Bloomfield 13 Jeanine Kemm Director 14 New Yorkers for Term Limits 15 Lois Slessinger 16 Norman Siegel 17 Arthur J. Fried Executive Director 18 Center for Excellence in New York City Governance Robert Wagner Graduate School for Public Service 19 New York University 20 Charles Juntikka 21 Marcia Lynn 22 Norbert Chwat 23 Cathy Stewart Independence Party 24 Michael Farrin 25 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 3 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S (CONTINUED) 3 Barbara Rochman 4 Public Policy Vice President Women's City Club of New York 5 Mary Vavruska 6 Gilda Chirafisi 7 Joel Berger, Esq. 8 New Yorkers for Term Limits 9 Susan Stetzer 10 Stacie Rumenap U.S. Term Limits 11 Terry A. Bastone 12 Democratic District Leader 13 Masada Disenhouse Green Party of New York State 14 Dey Star Jo 15 Green Party of New York State 16 Rossana Rizzo Green Party of New York State 17 Evergreen Chou 18 Green Party of New York State 19 Lori Zett Green Party of New York State 20 Jerry Kann 21 Green Party of New York State 22 Christian Doscher Green Party of New York State 23 Hilda Hernandez 24 R.F.K. Community Development Organization 25 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 4 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S (CONTINUED) 3 Carolyn Younger 4 Black Families International 5 Jasper Niblock Citizens' Union 6 Alithia D. Alleyne 7 Hiram Monserrate 8 Democratic District Leader Latino Officers Association 9 Raynaldo Mercado 10 Friends of Anthony Curry 11 William Struhs 12 Aida Gonzalez 13 Francesca Castianos 14 Sandra Pope 15 Mulah Puasan 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 5 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Good morning, 3 and thank you for your presence. The Committee on 4 Governmental Operations has now come to order, and 5 we want to welcome you to this very important 6 discussion regarding Intro. No. 880. We just want to 7 establish certain rules in the beginning. 8 We know that everyone is 9 enthusiastic, and have a lot to say. There is 10 intense feeling, and we are going to ask you to 11 restrain yourselves so that your enthusiasm will not 12 get the best of you, there will not be any 13 interruption of speakers. This is a normal City 14 Council hearing, and we mean by that, there will be 15 no interruption of speakers as they speak, and you 16 will also find that when your turn comes to be 17 heard, you will have full opportunity to make your 18 presentation. 19 You will be limited as to the time 20 that you will be given to speak, because as you can 21 see, there are few other citizens behind you, 22 besides you and in front of you, who also want to 23 enjoy the same privilege. 24 We thank you for your presence, and 25 at this time we are going to call on our first Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 6 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 speaker, and we are going to ask him if he will 3 identify himself by name and title so that we might 4 all know who he is and his role at this particular 5 time. 6 SPEAKER VALLONE: Thank you very much, 7 Madam Chair. I am Peter Vallone -- 8 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Oh, I have heard 9 that name before. 10 SPEAKER VALLONE:-- The Speaker of the 11 City Council, and very proud of it. 12 This is the second time that I can 13 recall that I testified rather than to make a 14 statement from above. Testimony is different than 15 making a statement, because testimony is what it is 16 meant to be. It is far more significant, far more 17 lasting. 18 The last time that I testified like 19 this was approximately 12 years ago when we had 20 another defining moment in the Council's history, 21 and that moment was when we received the power, to 22 be a balance of power, a real balance of power, in 23 the City of New York, and no one is prouder than I 24 am of the accomplishments that we have made in the 25 last 12 years since the Charter took effect in Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 7 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 1990/1991. 3 So, today, your Committee, the 4 Committee on Governmental Operations, is convening 5 to consider a bill that would overturn a referendum 6 enacted by the citizens of New York City. So, let me 7 be very clear about it. 8 In considering a bill that would 9 overturn the express rule of the people, this body 10 risked diminishing our real accomplishments of the 11 past, as well as the Council's ability to continue 12 building a record of accomplishment in the future. 13 This, again, is a defining moment in the Council's 14 history. 15 More than our reputations are at 16 stake, more than our judgment as law-makers and 17 representatives of the people is at stake here 18 today, because this debate about term limits is in 19 the final analysis, only a secondary issue. Today 20 the heart of the matter is not term limits, it is 21 democracy. 22 I believe a legislative response to 23 term limits is wrong. I believe it is unwise. I 24 believe it is potentially devastating to the 25 legislative process and to this body. But more Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 8 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 important than all of that, I believe it is 3 undemocratic. 4 We are here in this Chamber to 5 represent the people, we are not here to overturn 6 the voice of the people, and I think it is very 7 significant that right above all our heads is "a 8 government of the people, by the people, and for the 9 people". 10 In the past 10 years this City 11 Council has come a long, long way. The 1989 Charter 12 revisions ushered in a new era for City government 13 in New York, making the Council a governing partner 14 with the Mayor. Since then this Council has been 15 responsible for delivering the City budget, balanced 16 and on time year after year. 17 We have addressed major Land Use 18 issues in fair and innovative ways. We have enacted 19 landmark reforms in a wide range of areas, from 20 successful public safety initiatives, to modeled 21 campaign finance legislation. 22 Indeed, over the past decade, this 23 Council has become a model of leadership, and no one 24 is more proud of the hard work of the members of 25 this Council than I am. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 9 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 To abolish term limits through a 3 legislative act, thereby overruling the people's 4 will as expressed in two referenda, would undermine 5 everything this body has achieved. What's more, such 6 an act would threaten the Council's effectiveness in 7 the future. 8 The only proper way to abolish term 9 limits is through the ballot box, and you all know 10 my opinion of term limits. But I am vehemently 11 opposed to any effort that denies the people their 12 voice. To me this bill represents a dramatic 13 departure from good, sound government and a 14 dangerous defiance of the people we serve. 15 I have said it repeatedly and I say 16 it again today. As servants of the people we must 17 respect the will of the voters. I, therefore, oppose 18 this bill categorically, and without reservation. 19 Thank you very much, Madam Chair. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Mr. Speaker, I 21 know that you are the Speaker, at this time are you 22 willing to answer questions? 23 SPEAKER VALLONE: Absolutely. 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. The 25 questions will come from Council Members, of course. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 10 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Are there any questions for the 3 Speaker? 4 Hearing none, thank you. 5 SPEAKER VALLONE: Thank you very much, 6 Madam Chair. Thank you, all of my fellow colleagues. 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: In order to 8 assure that there was equity, I assured Council 9 Member Michels, who is the prime sponsor of Intro. 10 No. 880, that he would have an opportunity to make a 11 brief statement in reference to this particular 12 legislation. 13 The operating word is "brief". Thank 14 you. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Thank you, 16 Madam Chair, I appreciate it. Mr. Speaker, with all 17 due respect, the battle over term limits is not an 18 attempt by Council members to keep their jobs. 19 Indeed, at least 20 of the 35 members who would be 20 forced out of office due to term limits this year 21 have said they would not run for re-election even if 22 they could. I am the lead sponsor of the bill to 23 repeal term limits and I am also one of the 20. 24 The real issue is whether limiting 25 the terms of Council members truly promotes good Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 11 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 government in New York City. It simply does not. 3 Term limits will only succeed in 4 turning back the clock to a time when the City 5 Council was impotent and ineffective, much as it 6 existed in 1978 when I first took office. 7 In 1989 the Council was granted new 8 powers over the budget and Land Use issues, and as a 9 result, we have become a full partner in government 10 and a strong counterweight to the Mayor. 11 As the Speaker has stated, we have 12 passed nationally recognized legislation on such 13 issues as increased police manpower, tax relief, 14 smoking in public places, recycling, safety measures 15 for ATM facilities, access for reproduction of 16 health care clinics, domestic partnership benefits 17 and hate crimes. We have asserted our authority by 18 overriding 15 of the Mayor's vetoes of our bills. 19 In 1998 we passed our own version of 20 the City Budget over his objections. The City 21 Council cannot be effective without some continuity 22 and an institutional memory. 23 This year we face the prospect of 24 nearly 70 percent of the members being turned out of 25 office at the same time and it could happen Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 12 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 repeatedly in the future under term limits. 3 This abrupt loss of experience would 4 severely handicap the Council. 5 The remaining members would have been 6 in office no more than four years. An experienced 7 legislative body is needed to check the otherwise 8 sole and unrestricted authority of the Mayor. The 9 City cannot function as a one-person show. 10 It is healthy to have a regular 11 turnover of Council members, and this has been 12 occurring without term limits. 13 In fact, since 1978, over 16 new 14 members have replaced incumbents through the natural 15 democratic process of regular elections, and 15 16 since the last election alone. 17 Millionaire Ron Lauder, who was 18 defeated by Mayor Giuliani in 1989, personally 19 financed the term limit campaign of 1993 and 1996. 20 He engaged a slick advertising campaign with little 21 regard for the facts. After spending millions of 22 dollars, he could only get 32 percent of the voters 23 to support his version of term limits. Almost 70 24 percent of the election who voted in 1993 and 1996 25 elections either voted against Lauder's position or Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 13 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 did not vote on the referendum at all. So much for 3 the myth that the majority of New Yorkers voted for 4 term limits. 5 If the Council repeals term limits, 6 it will not be the first time that we have 7 overturned a referendum. 8 In 1996, the voters approved a 9 referendum outlawing an Independent Civilian 10 Complaint Review Board, appointed by Mayor Lindsay, 11 to monitor the Police Department. 12 In one of our most important recent 13 actions, the Council created a CCRB outside the 14 control of the Police Department, and it is now an 15 essential tool in dealing with police abuses. 16 As to the issue of not listening to 17 the will of the 32 percent of those people, I must 18 quote you Edmund Burke, the British orator, who was 19 so often quoted, and his most famous quote, one of 20 the most famous quotes in the English language, 21 "Your representative owes you not his industry 22 only, but his judgment. And he betrays, instead of 23 serving you, if he sacrifices to your opinion." This 24 was a speech to the Bristol England elective in 25 1774. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 14 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Our motivation in introducing term 3 limits repeal bill is to preserve the Council as a 4 co-equal branch of government and to leave to my 5 successors and to our successors a Council in better 6 condition than we found it. 7 The Council has proved, and Mr. 8 Speaker, you have stated so eloquently, you have 9 proved it, that this Council is worth saving. 10 Thank you very much. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 12 Now, why don't we agree that you will 13 withhold all applause at this point, as well as 14 withhold all lobbying at this point, from the front 15 row to the rear row, okay? Thank you very much. This 16 is a public hearing. 17 And also, your cell phones can be 18 disruptive. So, if you will turn off your cell 19 phones, that will be helpful also. 20 Excuse me. I didn't ask you to 21 identify anyone who has a cell phone, all cell 22 phones. 23 The last thing, anyone who expects to 24 testify, and who does not have an appearance ticket 25 in will not be called. So, if you are expecting to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 15 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 be called you must have an appearance ticket as a 3 potential witness. 4 Thank you. 5 Ed Wallace. 6 We now have a three-minute rule. 7 MR. WALLACE: Good morning, Mr. 8 Speaker, Chairwoman Pinkett, members of the City 9 Council. My name is Ed Wallace. I am here to speak 10 in favor of Intro. 880. 11 As a former member of this Council, I 12 am particularly honored to be permitted to be here 13 today. 14 I have great respect for this body 15 and its members and its great Speaker with whom I 16 was privileged to serve 20 years ago. 17 Let me get to the heart of the matter 18 quickly. City Council repeal of the Charter 19 amendment adopted by public referendum is not only 20 appropriate, but in certain cases, urgent. 21 Today repeal of term limits is 22 urgent. The members know it, the Speaker knows it, 23 the Citizens Union knows it, NYPIRG knows it. Yet, 24 many will hide behind the process issue. 25 The process crowd wants you to leave Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 16 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 this institution weaker on two counts: 3 First, the implementation of term 4 limits will in itself leave the Council without its 5 memory, and leave it disorganized. But if the 6 Council refuses to exercise its repeal right under 7 the Charter, it will weaken the institution of the 8 Council even more. 9 The Charter gives you the power to 10 repeal a mob rule enactment, if you don't use that 11 power, you will only show weakness. 12 Ironically, what the smearing 13 columnists and mocking editorialists have 14 characterized as "nest feathering" by incumbent 15 Council members, is really an act of political 16 courage. It is a willingness to stand up for what is 17 right, even against the majoritarian mob. 18 Let me illustrate the point with 19 perhaps an extreme example. If a public referendum 20 passed barring voters who can't speak English from 21 voting, the process crowd would be down here in five 22 minutes demanding you repeal of that public 23 referendum. 24 The term limits law is a pernicious 25 law. The Speaker was right, the issue is democracy. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 17 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 It is time for New Yorkers to dust off their civics 3 books when it comes to debating whether the City 4 Council should repeal artificial term limits, 5 adopted by the voters in the Ron Lauder-sponsored 6 1993 public referendum. 7 In our representative democracy, the 8 legislature and the courts exist to protect the 9 fundamental liberties of the minority from tyranny 10 of the majority. 11 Artificial term limits don't just 12 punish incumbent legislators, they deprive every 13 voter of his or her fundamental right to re-elect an 14 effective representative. 15 The forced mass retirement of City 16 Council Members often brings tears from those who 17 view all politicians as self-serving demagogues. But 18 throwing honest, effective representatives out 19 wholesale will not likely improve things. The 20 solution to that problem lies in creating a level 21 election playing field with public financing 22 campaigns so that challengers can be heard equally 23 with incumbents. Something this Council has done. 24 Of course, we already have genuine 25 term limits, we call them "elections." Generally we Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 18 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 rely on elected representatives to enact laws 3 because of the time and information required to 4 properly decide upon what laws make sense. 5 Direct voting by all people may sound 6 democratic in theory, but in practice it would 7 disproportionately favor those with power and money, 8 even more than our representative form of 9 government. 10 In the coming weeks the Council will 11 deliberate on a simple substantive question: Should 12 the decision of a majority of those who cast ballots 13 in 1993, but not a majority of eligible voters, 14 determine who I can vote for in 2001? I hope the 15 Council will recognize the right of the voters in 16 2001 to choose the next Council. 17 Those who disagree will have their 18 say at the Council hearing, but more important, if 19 the Council repeals term limits, they and all of us 20 will have our say at the polls, and that is what 21 democracy demands. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Speaker 23 Vallone. 24 SPEAKER VALLONE: Thank you very much 25 for your testimony. As a former colleague, I Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 19 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 appreciate your being here, and I know that is your 3 personal opinion. But are you also acting as an 4 attorney? 5 MR. WALLACE: No. I am here as a 6 citizen. I have petitioned and advised an awful lot 7 of people to adopt my view, but I am not acting on 8 behalf of anybody other than myself, frankly. 9 SPEAKER VALLONE: But you are an 10 attorney familiar with the process? 11 MR. WALLACE: Oh, I am an attorney, 12 yes. 13 SPEAKER VALLONE: Okay. 14 And let's assume that all of my 15 colleagues and every elected official in the country 16 was in favor of repeal, what do you think would 17 happen after the legislation was passed? 18 MR. WALLACE: If the repeal were 19 enacted, I believe that certain Council Members who 20 stood up and voted for repeal would be held to 21 account by their voters and possibly thrown out of 22 office. 23 Other Council Members -- 24 SPEAKER VALLONE: I am talking about 25 the process. Would you believe there would be Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 20 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 another referendum? 3 MR. WALLACE: There could be a 4 referendum from here until Dooms Day -- 5 SPEAKER VALLONE: Do you believe in 6 this case there would be a referendum repealing the 7 law? 8 MR. WALLACE: I think Ron Lauder would 9 probably pony up the money and try to do it again. 10 But I think the Council should have to stand up and 11 respond. 12 SPEAKER VALLONE: By adopting another 13 piece of legislation. 14 MR. WALLACE: The essential civics 15 question, the democratic process question, which we 16 obviously disagree, I think respectfully -- 17 SPEAKER VALLONE: I don't think we 18 disagree on the -- what I am trying to get is your 19 opinion as a lawyer. Just to clarify what might be 20 confusing in other people's minds. 21 Assuming that it was legal for the 22 Council, and I know that is your position, others 23 disagree, but assuming it was legal, if all of the 24 Council members agreed, if the Mayor agreed, if 25 every elected official in the country agreed, would Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 21 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 it make any difference to the fact that there would 3 be another referendum that would repeal term limits 4 that another referendum would take place repealing 5 the legislation that was passed? 6 MR. WALLACE: You say would it make a 7 difference, you would obviously have an ongoing 8 tennis match. 9 SPEAKER VALLONE: It would be an 10 ongoing tennis match, so you would have a repeal, 11 you would have a referendum, you would have a 12 repeal, you would have a referendum. 13 MR. WALLACE: Conceivably that is 14 true, but more likely I think the public debate, the 15 editorial opinion makers and the leaders would 16 ultimately conclude that term limits are not desired 17 by a majority of the people. 18 By the way, I think that is 19 interesting but not the most relevant fact. I am 20 here because I, as a voter, have an individual 21 liberty guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. 22 SPEAKER VALLONE: I understand that. 23 MR. WALLACE: So if the Council has to 24 do it every year from now until Dooms Day, it's the 25 right thing to do, that's what the Council will have Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 22 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 to do. 3 SPEAKER VALLONE: Okay, thank you. 4 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 5 Lopez. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Sir, can you 7 describe what is the procedure for the passage of a 8 piece of legislation? 9 MS. WALLACE: Probably not as well as 10 you can, Council Member, but the Council has 11 introduced -- first of all, we have to remember the 12 Council members are elected by the people. We have a 13 representative form of government, we don't have 14 direct enactments by the people in virtually all 15 cases. New York, in particular, disfavors direct 16 public enactments for very good reasons, because it 17 empowers wealthy interests to run public referenda, 18 have small voter turnout, ill-informed voters, and 19 obviously every voter who has a job or kids or other 20 things to do can't be as informed as their 21 representative. So, the process is simply for a 22 Council member or Council members to introduce a 23 bill, to hold public hearings like this, to 24 deliberate and to vote, and of course, for the Mayor 25 to determine whether he will sign the bill into law Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 23 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 or whether if he doesn't the Council has the 3 override power with the super majority to pass it 4 without Mayoral approval. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Does a 6 referendum require this procedure? Does a referendum 7 require public hearings being held? Does a 8 referendum require people being informed? Does a 9 referendum require sufficient, adequate information 10 to the public in order for that referendum to be 11 passed or defeated, that that is a requirement set? 12 MR. WALLACE: No, with a referendum, 13 and this is why it is, first of all, circumscribed 14 to a very narrow set of opportunities at all, it is 15 really a question of the broad advertising and 16 public kind of hoopla without any requirement that 17 there be any formal process, other than the vote at 18 the ballot, but curiously here, 33 percent, only 33 19 percent of the people actually showed up to vote on 20 other elections even bothered to pull the lever. 21 Now, of course the referenda passed, 22 but nobody can sit here and sacrosanctily say the 23 will of the people, the will of the people, because 24 clearly the most obvious judgments you can make is 25 that most people either didn't know about it, didn't Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 24 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 understand it, or didn't feel well informed enough 3 to have an opinion on it. 4 So, while of course the referendum 5 passed, the referendum is a very important check on 6 your power, but it is likewise your power ultimately 7 as representatives to repeal pernicious referenda. 8 It is all the government process. And whether you go 9 to court or you go to the Council or you go to 10 referendum, these are all elements of democracy. And 11 the main point that I want to make today, is not 12 only should the Council not be ashamed to exercise 13 that Charter given power, it should feel responsible 14 to enact it, if you believe in substance that term 15 limits are wrong. 16 And I think a majority of this 17 Council, even a super majority, believes that term 18 limits are substantively wrong. If the only issue is 19 process, get over it. Your duty is to vote what you 20 think is right. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Thank you, sir. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 23 Linares. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: Thank you, 25 Madam Chair. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 25 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 I agree with your statement fully and 3 I was wondering, since you were a member of this 4 Council, and managed to see it functioning, whether 5 you can comment on what you perceive to be the 6 impact of artificial term limits in position on 7 legislative body of this nature as opposed to what 8 it would be for an executive function of government, 9 and if you can elaborate a little bit in terms of 10 the difference between those two. 11 MR. WALLACE: Sure. Although, bear in 12 mind, I was a junior Council member while I was 13 here, and I was declared, my seat was declared 14 unconstitutional for other reasons. 15 The Council, which has obviously 16 grown dramatically in power since the abolition of 17 the Board of Estimate, since I was here, now stands 18 as an equal branch of government with the executive 19 branch. 20 There are important distinctions to 21 make between the legislative branch and the 22 executive branch, which although I disagree with 23 term limits even for the executive, I think there is 24 a much stronger argument, that an executive, be it 25 the President, the Governor, the Mayor, who can Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 26 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 unleash a police force, who can spend money, who can 3 in certain circumstances, in the case of the 4 President, actually put troops on the field, those 5 awesome powers do need some balancing out. 6 So, in this country which has a 7 strong anti-monarch tradition, limiting the 8 executive number of terms, is more inherently part 9 of the limitation on the powers of that office. 10 Term limits for legislatures have 11 nothing to do with the powers of the legislators. 12 They only limit the voters' right. 13 Having said that, let's talk 14 practically about what will happen in this body. The 15 people who have the institutional memory will be 16 gone. The people who have the wisdom accrued over 17 time will not be here. Very smart people will be 18 elected to the Council, but they will not know what 19 happened two years ago, five years ago, ten years 20 ago. 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me just 22 one moment. 23 Excuse me just one second. We are 24 asking questions for information. Excuse me, I am 25 still chairing this hearing. Excuse me, I am still Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 27 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 chairing this hearing. 3 What we are doing is eliciting 4 information from a witness. When you come to 5 testify, I mean I didn't stop you when you were 6 having a conversation with the person before you as 7 there was testimony taking place. I didn't say you 8 might be disturbing those people around you. But 9 what I am saying to you is, that if we ask questions 10 we are seeking information. That is the purpose of a 11 public hearing, and we have asked you previously, 12 please do not yell from your seats. 13 Thank you so much. Thank you so much. 14 Thank you. 15 Please continue. 16 If you do this, we will have you 17 removed. 18 MR. WALLACE: The bottom line is that 19 debates that were held five years ago, ten years 20 ago, 15 years ago on very important issues from tax 21 policy, job retention policy, schools policy, all of 22 that debate and discussion which led to the 23 enactments of certain laws will be lost. 24 Yes, there will be some staff who are 25 still here, hopefully, but the ultimate Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 28 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 decision-maker, the elected official, will be gone. 3 It doesn't serve the interest of the people of New 4 York. 5 An election serves that purpose, 6 because if there is an ineffective Council Member in 7 the eyes of the voters, they can be thrown out every 8 four years. So, we have a four-year term limit 9 called an election, we don't need another eight-year 10 term limit that simply says our most qualified 11 people can't run. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: Thank you. 13 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 14 Fiala, and then Council Member Clarke. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Thank you, 16 Madam Chair. 17 Mr. Wallace, welcome. This is 18 important. This hearing is very important. The 19 consequences are very significant. The issue before 20 this body will have consequences. 21 I agree with a lot of what you are 22 saying, and I am unresolved at this stage. I am 23 unresolved as to what side of the issue I will 24 ultimately fall on, and it is up to you and the 25 others in this room to make the case one way or Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 29 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 another. 3 You are right that we live in a 4 republic, a representative democracy, which in short 5 is a deliberative democracy. 6 We don't simply ratify the will of 7 the masses, the spontaneous will of the masses. 8 Having said that, though, woven into 9 the fabric of our democracy, is the opportunity for 10 citizens to avail themselves of the democratic 11 process, in certain states referendums are 12 permitted. We had two referendums here. How do you 13 square? Not the issue of term limits, because I 14 don't think there is another person here who is more 15 against term limits than I, but how do you square 16 that delicate balancing act between honoring the 17 intent of the founding fathers, the delicate 18 document that they put together, and not crossing 19 that line? 20 The people spoke twice. You said that 21 the overwhelming majority of people are against term 22 limits. My question to you is, where is the 23 empirical data to support that. All I have seen is 24 the opposite. And I am asking, can you deliver to me 25 empirical data to support the assertion that the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 30 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 majority is opposed? 3 MR. WALLACE: No, I want to be very 4 clear about this. I said the majority of people who 5 appeared at the polls on the date that those two 6 referenda were considered did not vote yea or nay on 7 the referendum. 8 In terms of what the popular view is, 9 which is an important thing but I don't think the 10 overriding thing, I think what is right is right, 11 whether it is the majority's opinion or not, on a 12 fundamental liberty interest like voting. So, I 13 don't pretend to say to you that we have the 14 information as to whether the public overwhelmingly 15 favors one or the other. What we have is a, you 16 know, a referendum sponsored by a very wealthy man 17 who had a very small turnout in terms of votes. 18 You should consider that, by the way, 19 overturning a public referendum, even on this very 20 important fundamental constitutional right of us 21 voters, not of you candidates, by the way, not of 22 you candidates or those candidates, it is my right 23 to vote, not the candidates' right to run that is 24 really at stake here. 25 But I think when you try to square Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 31 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 overturning the will of even a minority of the 3 people, but the one that was the majority that day, 4 you have to do it with great care and deliberation, 5 it shouldn't be done in every case. Here you have to 6 say did the public that voted violate the right of a 7 minority, in this case the people who don't want 8 term limits? They did. And that is how I think you 9 ultimately come to the conclusion that your duty as 10 a Council Member, if you don't believe in term 11 limits, and I think it is a painful duty, by the 12 way, I don't think it is easy, even if it looks like 13 you are feathering your nest, I think you have to 14 stand up and say, no, term limits are wrong for the 15 voters. 16 And by the way, the voters may throw 17 you out because of that. But that is the right thing 18 to do. 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 20 Clarke. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER CLARKE: Thank you, 22 Madam Chair. 23 I just would like to look at it from 24 the perspective of what happened in Florida, and 25 look at it at election reform versus term limits and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 32 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 how you would analyze the right of anyone who wants 3 to run, who is qualified to run in a democracy, to 4 take their place, and whether in fact what happens 5 at the poll, versus the time spent in public office, 6 if their constituents see them as being productive 7 to that community, one, and also because you are 8 experienced having served in this body, to kind of 9 explain the process rather than the product of 10 having to deliver on behalf of your constituents, 11 maybe a school, maybe a hospital, maybe some major 12 thing that that community needs, what kind of 13 process it takes and the time it takes to deliver 14 that. 15 I am in the Council, this is my tenth 16 year, and getting Kings County rebuilt was not easy, 17 getting a school built was not easy, and many 18 projects that I have put in the ground in my fourth 19 and fifth year here are still in the ground to be 20 completed, and I think a lot of times the education 21 and the civic responsibility, but I also want to add 22 to that a dimension of what the Charter spoke to 23 that brought me here when the Council was expanding, 24 about the diversity within the City and the power of 25 that diversity to make the decision on behalf of the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 33 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 diversity. 3 MR. WALLACE: I was most definitely an 4 insurgent, the incumbent had died, there was a 5 vacancy, but there were 19 candidates, I would say 6 of whom at least 15 were better known than me, and 7 had been a member of the Council, others had run for 8 other offices. So, I think elections are good things 9 and people can come from humble beginnings and get 10 to this body. 11 I think what you learn when you get 12 to this body is that the public makes great demands 13 of you, as you all know, but I am not sure all of 14 those who are now running for office fully 15 appreciate. 16 The incumbent's record is most often 17 used to try to hang the incumbent, not to -- by 18 their opponents. So, when an incumbent runs, they 19 can't hide from it. If they haven't performed, a 20 challenger will make that known. 21 I agree that it used to be that the 22 power of the incumbent gave a tremendous advantage 23 in an election. Some of that is quite appropriate. 24 The most experienced doctor, the most experienced 25 school teacher, the power of those incumbents to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 34 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 have their popularity increased is logical and 3 common sensical and right, and so, too, with the 4 Council member. If you have delivered for your 5 constituents and performed for the City, by all 6 means you should be elected. That is what this term 7 limit thing prevents. 8 On the other hand, if you haven't 9 performed, and I see a lot of them sitting here, 10 there are people who will come and make it known to 11 the voter. In the old days it was tough to make it 12 known because raising a campaign dollar was a very 13 hard thing for a challenger. 14 Today that playing field is in my 15 judgment level, but no one can debate that the 16 public finance laws that we have in place mean that 17 everybody's voice can be heard if they have a bear 18 minimum core constituency to start out with. 19 The one thing people should know, and 20 it is so easy to trash politicians, and by the way, 21 I have been a voice against incumbents when I 22 thought they were ineffective, but the people who 23 come to this Council by and large work very hard. My 24 rule was can I get to five meetings the night before 25 people would sort of throw me out because it was Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 35 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 11:00 and they wanted to go home, but the Council 3 members do try and do succeed in many respects, and 4 for the voters to decide Council Member by Council 5 Member who to reelect and who to throw out, it was 6 not for some people, good hearted people though they 7 may have been in 1993 or 1996, to tell the people in 8 this room in 2001 who they could have as a 9 candidate. It is irrational, it is unfair, it is 10 unjust, as I keep saying, mostly to the voters, but, 11 frankly, it is unfair to the people who have worked 12 so hard, that they can't put their names before the 13 Council and let the voters decide individually. That 14 is really the American way. 15 We don't throw people out because of 16 their category, we throw them out because of their 17 character and their performance, and what this law 18 does is wholesale ignore performance and say if you 19 have been in two terms you are out. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER CLARKE: Thank you very 21 much, Madam Chair. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: My last question 23 would be this to you: In your analysis in looking at 24 the various areas of the City, did you find any 25 areas where the bill did not carry, where they did Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 36 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 not win, term limits was defeated? 3 MR. WALLACE: I have not looked at it 4 on a district-by-district basis, and I have the 5 borough statistics, but they are not before me. I 6 will gladly submit that to you and I will actually 7 do that analysis for you. 8 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I would like to 9 see it. 10 MR. WALLACE: There were disparities, 11 however. Remember, we are talking about a pretty 12 small number of voters, but there were disparities 13 among communities, and in general, I don't want to 14 generalize without submitting it to you, but I do 15 believe it did break down along lines that one could 16 raise questions about whether certain communities 17 were being disenfranchised, more so than others. 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I would like to 19 ask you to send that to our Council, because I think 20 that is very, very important. 21 Part of a win or a loss depends upon 22 coverage, it depends upon media coverage, it depends 23 upon the publicity that is given, it depends upon 24 how it is carried and where it is carried and to 25 whom it is carried, how effective that message is. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 37 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 I would like to have that information 3 -- 4 MR. WALLACE: I will get that to you 5 promptly. 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Send that to our 7 Counsel, we would be very appreciative of that. 8 Thank you. 9 MR. WALLACE: Thank you. 10 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: We are going to 11 call on Gene Russianoff and Glenn Pasanen to testify 12 and we are going to ask the two of you to come at 13 the same time. Thank you. 14 Would you please identify yourselves 15 by name, organization, and title within the 16 organization. 17 MR. RUSSIANOFF: I am Gene Russianoff, 18 I am Senior Attorney with the New York Public 19 Interest Research Group. 20 MR. PASANEN: I am Glenn Pasanen, 21 Associate Director of City Project. 22 MR. RUSSIANOFF: Madam Chairwoman, 23 members of the Committee, I have a brief statement. 24 The New York Public Interest Research 25 Group believes it would be a grave mistake for the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 38 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 New York City Council to seek to overturn term 3 limits without taking the issue back to City voters 4 who approved them twice in '93 and '96. 5 If the Council overrules two clear 6 votes in support of two term limits for all elected 7 City officials, it would send a terrible message to 8 New Yorkers that their vote doesn't count. 9 I also believe that a term limits 10 repeal under these circumstances would badly weaken 11 the City Council as a check on the City's executive 12 branch, and in this regard I really strongly agree 13 with the comments made by Speaker Vallone about the 14 progress the Council has made since 1989. My group 15 was one of the organizations that strongly supported 16 increasing the powers of the Council, we lobbied the 17 Charter Commission, we believe that the City an 18 effective check and balance on the Mayor. 19 You have a track record of 20 accomplishment, ranging from the Nation's best local 21 Campaign Finance Law, some of the nation's best 22 safeguards against the public health impacts of 23 cigarette smoking. 24 In my belief, it would be a 25 tremendous blow to this progress, if Council members Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 39 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 defied the will of the voters to keep themselves in 3 office. 4 I also think the timing is terrible. 5 If Council Members wanted to take up this issue, it 6 should have been done well in advance of the City 7 elections. If this bill passes now, it will put a 8 cloud over the elections and you will see something 9 very much like a New York version of the Florida 10 Presidential recount, the lawsuit overshadowing 11 day-to-day campaigning. 12 I have followed, and I have spoken to 13 Ed Wallace a number of times about this issue, the 14 last person to testify, and I believe his views are 15 very sincere and deeply held, but I don't agree with 16 him that in this set of circumstances it is correct 17 for the Council to overturn a Charter proposal. 18 There was a reference, I think Council Member 19 Michels made a reference to the Civilian Police 20 Review Board, but where the Council has acted in the 21 past to overturn referendums, they were on 22 relatively either narrow issues, or they were parts 23 of larger referenda, or they were measures that were 24 approved many years earlier. It is quite a different 25 thing to change a Civilian Police Review Board 30 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 40 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 years later when there is a totally changed City and 3 circumstances, and in this case to overturn the will 4 of the voters expressed in '93 and '96. 5 To conclude, reasonable people can 6 disagree about term limits. My organization was 7 neutral, we actually debated. We have a student 8 board of directors, and the Board sat down and we 9 had a debate about it, and there were strong 10 arguments on each side, and we decided to remain 11 neutral as we did in '96, when the Council presented 12 the issue back to the voters again. 13 If the Council wants to change term 14 limits, it should go back to the voters in an 15 orderly way with adequate time for public debate, 16 and I thank you for the opportunity to speak today. 17 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: We thank you for 18 your testimony. 19 I would suggest to you only one 20 thing; and that is, something started 20 years ago 21 and it didn't succeed, and finally with this Council 22 it did succeed later. 23 I would only suggest there was a Dred 24 Scott decision in a Supreme Court that happened, and 25 then subsequently there was a change in time, change Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 41 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 in attitude, there was a change in the law, and it 3 happened many, many, many, many years later. 4 So, the fact that it took longer 5 didn't mean that it was wrong, it just meant that it 6 took longer to achieve that which should have 7 happened earlier. Only comment. Only comment. 8 Your testimony, sir. 9 MR. PASANEN: Thank you, Madam Chair. 10 Again, I am Glenn Pasanen from City 11 Project. We are here today also to oppose Resolution 12 880. We testify with some sorrow because we 13 recognize the validity of many of the arguments in 14 favor of repeal. 15 The consequences of term limits as 16 now constituted may well be harmful to the public 17 interest, but that prospect does not justify this 18 bill. 19 Supporters of repeal are promoting 20 undemocratic and ultimately self-defeating process. 21 It is not fair to voters or candidates already 22 running for office, likely court challenges will 23 only add further confusion to this year's campaign. 24 In terms of public confidence in its 25 legislature, winning here will be worse than losing. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 42 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 One of the outside supporters of this bill, a 3 distinguished lawyer, said recently at a press 4 conference downstairs, that this bill was a good 5 idea because the two recent public votes in favor of 6 the term limits represented, "mob mentality of the 7 referendum." I assume voters would find that view 8 offensive. Opponents of term limits need to engage 9 voters, not dismiss them out of hand. 10 We urge the Council to withdraw this 11 bill and find a more considered process, preferably 12 in the context of a future Charter Revision 13 Commission. Choices about staggered terms, the 14 number of terms, or total rejection of term limits, 15 are fundamental constitutional matters. We think 16 they should be debated and determined by voters, as 17 well as by legislators. 18 Thanks for the chance to testify. 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: We appreciate 20 your testimony. 21 Let me just do one bit of 22 clarification. The statement in terms of Dred Scott 23 was in reference to your remark about the Council, 24 in general, about the bill taking 20 years in terms 25 of the police, not in reference to the legislation Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 43 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 or the validity of the legislation. 3 I think that in all legislation you 4 find that it takes a long time sometimes to achieve 5 that which we would like to achieve earlier. 6 MR. RUSSIANOFF: I was just responding 7 to Ed Wallace's comments about the right of a local 8 legislature to repeal a referenda. 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I know. 10 MR. RUSSIANOFF: In New York City we 11 have an extremely limited form of referenda. It is 12 very hard to get on the ballot. In fact, one of the 13 reasons why voter turnout was so low in 1993 was 14 because of determined legal efforts to try and keep 15 term limits off the ballot to the last minute, it 16 really wasn't known until late October of '93 that 17 voters would be voting on this. 18 Although, I would also point out that 19 voters did receive, 3 million of them, a voter guide 20 that had information both pro and con on term 21 limits. 22 So, I was trying to respond to the 23 point that about a legislature's role in repealing a 24 referenda, I think the set of circumstances here 25 does not justify Council action. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 44 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Well, the only 3 thing I am saying to you is possibly one of the 4 things that poses a problem for the Council in 5 general, is that it is so easy to put down the 6 Council, even though you may recognize the changes. 7 And you say, well, they did this and 8 they did that, and you know, they have improved. But 9 one of the things that no one seems to recognize is 10 that election law is state, and there is, of course, 11 a City responsibility, but just having a hearing on 12 yesterday with the Board of Elections, and you were 13 there -- 14 MR. RUSSIANOFF: Correct. 15 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And to make 16 simple changes, such as can we change the hours, was 17 to say but you have to talk to the state. You can't 18 do that, even though it may make sense to us in the 19 City, it is not as easy as it sounds. So, it is not 20 the intransigence of the Council, it is how do you 21 get past certain impediments that make it difficult 22 to move, and I don't think the Council gets fair 23 recognition, and we don't have millions of dollars 24 that we can throw around in ads and say, hey, this 25 is what we are doing. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 45 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 And, so, I think that anyone who 3 transmits information, has to say these are the 4 facts, this is what happens. But this legislature 5 works for the people of the City of New York. 6 MR. RUSSIANOFF: I can't speak -- 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I don't want to 8 get into a debate with you. 9 MR. RUSSIANOFF: I can't speak -- 10 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: We could fight 11 all day. 12 MR. RUSSIANOFF: I know. 13 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I am not going 14 to do that. 15 MR. RUSSIANOFF: I can't speak for 16 other groups, but I can say, and I know there are 17 many members here that know that it is true, that my 18 organization has worked very hard to assist Council 19 Members both on substance issues, and on their role 20 in City government. We greatly believe in the need 21 for a check and balance on the Executive. And it is 22 in part, in major part, because of our respect for 23 the Council, because of the importance of this 24 institution, that we oppose the term limits repeal, 25 because we think it will be a blow to the Council. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 46 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I accept all of 3 that, the message from both of you, but the 4 constitutional issues and all of those issues was 5 not just a responsibility of the Council, this was 6 the responsibility of all of the citizen 7 organizations, as well as Council members, because 8 the constitution covers everyone. Everyone is 9 covered by the same constitution, and if anyone can 10 buy out the constitution, then they bought out your 11 constitution as well as ours. That's the only 12 question. 13 Thank you. Thank you for your 14 testimony. 15 Council Member Fiala, and then 16 Council Member Michels. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Thank you. 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Thank you, 20 Madam Chair. 21 Gentlemen, a very simple question, I 22 asked Mr. Wallace the question, I will ask it to 23 you. Our democracy, as I said, it's a balancing act, 24 and we revisit first principles which establish our 25 government, and you balance that with process. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 47 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Process is critical in perpetuating our democracy. 3 We survive for over 200 years for this system. Is 4 there any empirical evidence available that suggests 5 that the overwhelming or the majority, I won't even 6 say overwhelming, that the majority of New Yorkers 7 are opposed to term limits? 8 MR. RUSSIANOFF: No. 9 MR. PASANEN: No. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Thank you. 11 MR. RUSSIANOFF: Certainly the opinion 12 polls are clear. And I would say it is a dangerous 13 argument for Mr. Wallace to make that only 32 14 percent of the voters in 1993 voted yes on the 15 proposal. 16 Again, my group didn't support it, 17 but there are many Council members who were elected 18 with a relatively small number of people voting in 19 their district, that does not make you illegitimate. 20 You have to go out and convince people to vote. 21 There was a transportation bond that 22 lost in the ballot last November, and 60 percent of 23 people in the City didn't vote on it, and I think 24 that is a shame, but the vote is a vote and in a 25 democracy the people who vote turn out and vote. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 48 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 So, I think it is a very slippery 3 road to go down because it raises legitimacy about 4 elected officials and about the referendum process, 5 and I wouldn't go there. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: That is the 7 question. That was the question. Yes, only 35 8 percent that went into the voting booth voted on 9 that Charter issue. However, we do not divine the 10 will of voters. If less than half of the country 11 comes out to vote for the Presidential election, 12 less than half of the country has picked the next 13 President, and shame on the balance who sat home, 14 right? 15 MR. RUSSIANOFF: Correct. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: But there is no 17 evidence on the other side, other than polls. I am 18 talking about empirical evidence. There is just 19 nothing out there that would suggest that people 20 felt disenfranchised, or people didn't know. 21 MR. RUSSIANOFF: I believe that is 22 correct. 23 MR. PASANEN: We study the budget, as 24 members know, and I think it is fair to say that the 25 average voter knows much less about the City budget Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 49 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 than he or she knows about term limits. 3 It's a constant struggle that groups 4 like ours have to inform a wider audience. We see 5 this as an opportunity for the Council to work with 6 the alleged process crowd and try to explain. There 7 are many ways in which we could do that together, 8 what is really at stake here. This is a democratic 9 process that needs to play out, and City project is 10 certainly happy to work with each and every one of 11 you. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 13 Council Member Michels. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Yes, thank 15 you, Madam Chair. 16 I also want to join with you with 17 respect to the analogy with the Dred Scott Decision 18 and the CCRB. All I can say is that the damage that 19 has happened between the time of the Dred Scott 20 Decision and to repeal, and the referendum of CCRB 21 repeal, it is an estimate, we don't know what damage 22 it took. What we are trying to do is stop the damage 23 that is going to take place between the repeal of 24 the term limits, that is what we are doing here. 25 Can I ask you both a question? Forget Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 50 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 about the process, are you for or against term 3 limits? 4 MR. PASANEN: City Project has not 5 taken a stand on that. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: In the past 7 also? 8 MR. PASANEN: Correct. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Don't you 10 think it is important enough to take a position on? 11 You take a position on practically everything else. 12 MR. PASANEN: Fair enough, and we 13 would look forward to an extensive discussion and we 14 would make our position known. This is too sudden, 15 too uninformed. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: But this has 17 been on the ballot '93, '96. 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 19 Michels, excuse me. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Yes? 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I would think 22 that we have gotten an answer, and I don't want to 23 put any words in his mouth. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: You are 25 correct. I withdraw the question. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 51 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Mr. 4 Russianoff, can you answer the question? 5 MR. RUSSIANOFF: My organization was 6 neutral both in '93 and '96. Personally I voted 7 against term limits in '93, and I voted for the 8 extension of it, three terms in '96. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Thank you 10 very much, I appreciate it. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 12 Michels, the next time that I say we will stop, we 13 will stop, or you will not be with us. 14 Thank you. 15 Thank you very much. Thank you very 16 much. 17 Okay, Council Member Sabini. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: I just have a 19 quick question. 20 I agree with much of what you said, 21 Mr. Russianoff, on who voted and why, I don't think 22 that is a very valid argument. I think some of the 23 other arguments Mr. Wallace made were excellent 24 arguments. 25 But on a matter that is before us Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 52 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 right now, since there is this whole thing of 3 whether or not the voters should be ultimate say on 4 matters of importance, or whether or not they 5 empower us to be the ultimate say, there is a 6 pending court case now that the Mayor is suing to 7 overturn the four to one match, if he wins that 8 case, based on a referendum that the voters passed, 9 should the Council reinstitute the four to one 10 match, even though the voters, if the Court decides 11 that, said not to? 12 MR. RUSSIANOFF: Well, I am going to 13 resist to your point here by saying that the issue 14 in that case is what the intent of the City Council 15 was, and that is the only issue in the case. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: That is not 17 the Mayor's argument, from my understanding. 18 MR. RUSSIANOFF: No, no. The Mayor's 19 argument is that the Council only intended a four to 20 one match for candidates who decided not to take 21 corporate contributions, and that when the voters 22 enacted a ban on corporate contributions, there was 23 no longer an option for candidates. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: But the voters 25 vote. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 53 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MR. RUSSIANOFF: The whole case is 3 about the intent of the legislature and not about 4 referendum. 5 The broader issue, which is it 6 appropriate for City Council -- 7 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: You didn't 8 answer the question, do you think we should pass it 9 or not? 10 MR. RUSSIANOFF: You mean should 11 override the Mayor? 12 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: If there is a 13 Court decision. 14 That the Court would say in effect 15 the people had voted not to have a four to one 16 match, should we override that? I would assume you 17 would be here telling us we should, right? 18 MR. RUSSIANOFF: Again, I want to be 19 very clear, we do not have an absolute position that 20 the legislature can never override a referendum. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Thank you. 22 MR. RUSSIANOFF: No, let me finish my 23 point. You asked a question and I think it is fair 24 to -- but the set of circumstances here are so 25 clear, a referendum enacted twice overwhelmingly by Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 54 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 the voters in '93 and '96, it's not at all analogous 3 in my mind to the Civilian Police Review Board issue 4 where the Council acted 30 years after a referendum 5 had passed. 6 In New York City it is very hard, it 7 is extremely hard to get on the ballot in a 8 referendum. Many groups, the Coalition for the 9 Homeless, the Coalition Against the Nuclear Home 10 Port, a Campaign Finance referendum, all those were 11 shot down by the political process, in part because 12 the Council and the City leadership resists having 13 votes. 14 And, so, I think to overturn 15 something that has been so recently passed by the 16 voters and so clearly affects you individually is a 17 terrible mistake for the Council to make. 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. I 19 think that you perhaps inadvertently made a mistake. 20 The Mayor's objections did not talk 21 to just corporate, he just said dollars. 22 It was just corporate contributions. 23 It did not speak to the four for one, it just said 24 contributions. 25 MR. RUSSIANOFF: Correct. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 55 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: So, he might 3 have decided two for one was too much, three for one 4 was too much, it allowed the fact that someone could 5 set the limit. It would totally destable what we did 6 in terms of campaign finance, so that you would have 7 a system here where so many people who were in this 8 room are campaigning based upon the fact that there 9 is legislation that provided them: one, opportunity 10 to run; two, finance that would enable them to run. 11 This lousy Council said run against us. Here is the 12 procedure and here are the dollars. Now, you can't 13 get that in Albany and you can't get it in 14 Washington, D.C. But if you come to New York City, 15 there is a dumb legislative body that is giving you 16 money, and, hey, take us on, run. And this area is 17 packed with people saying, hey, we want those seats 18 because those folks are too dumb to stay in office. 19 And I think the question is 20 legitimate. Suppose, as Council Member Stabile says 21 -- excuse me, Sabini said - and they don't look 22 anything alike - you know, if we lose, what then 23 would be your position? You can't back out of that 24 one. 25 MR. RUSSIANOFF: They are totally -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 56 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And we have 3 spent more money for the Mayor to lose -- 4 MR. RUSSIANOFF: They are a totally 5 different set of circumstances. 6 I greatly respect what this Council 7 has done on Campaign Finance Reform. 8 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, fine. 9 MR. RUSSIANOFF: As you know, I have 10 worked with your Committee for a long time, and it 11 is greatly to your credit, and it is that very kind 12 of progress that I do not want to see imperiled by a 13 wrong-headed repeal of term limits. 14 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Well, then how 15 could it be protected if you don't stand up and say, 16 hey, we can't lose this? 17 MR. RUSSIANOFF: The Council has done 18 it. You passed 40 to four and you are going to 19 override the Mayor after his veto and the law is 20 going to stand. And you have done it within your 21 constitutional powers and that is appropriate. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: The four for 23 one, we are talking about that. If that happens, 24 what would be your position? That is the only thing. 25 That is a real question, what would be your Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 57 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 position? What should the Council do? 3 MR. RUSSIANOFF: I am at a loss to 4 even understand the scenario that you are giving me 5 here. If the court rules -- 6 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Based on the 7 questioning today, I might decide that since the 8 people spoke and the judge said the people spoke, I 9 might not vote for an override. 10 MR. RUSSIANOFF: That's an issue, the 11 Mayor made an interpretation of what he believes 12 personally to be the will of the voters. There is no 13 question here what the role of the voters were in 14 enacting the term limit referendum. 15 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: We will take you 16 out of agony. We will take you out of your agony. 17 Think about it, contact us at a later time as to 18 your decision. 19 MR. RUSSIANOFF: And I think my answer 20 is quite clear. 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I understand it 22 and I respectfully understand your position. I don't 23 necessarily agree but I understand what you are 24 saying. 25 Thank you so very much. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 58 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MR. PASANEN: Thank you. 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Paul Crotty, and 4 Richard Emery. 5 Please identify yourselves. We don't 6 know who you two are. 7 MR. EMERY: Thank you very much. I am 8 Richard Emery. I am here in my capacity as a lawyer 9 in New York City. I am a civil rights litigator and 10 a constitutional lawyer, and I have had something to 11 do with the process by which this Council emerged as 12 what I consider to be a full-fledged legislative 13 body in the wake of the demise of the Board of 14 Estimate. 15 I was the lawyer who brought the case 16 which resulted in the Supreme Court declaring the 17 Board of Estimate unconstitutional. And obviously, 18 in the wake of that, the Charter Revision, which 19 gave this Council new powers. 20 As a constitutional lawyer, I support 21 the repeal of term limits. I support the bill that 22 this Council is now considering, 880, and I support 23 it for many of the reasons, of course, that others 24 have testified in particular that Ed Wallace has 25 outlined, and I don't need to repeat those. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 59 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 But I support it in particular 3 because as a constitutional lawyer, I look upon the 4 term limit limitation on the rights of an individual 5 voter as an anathema to what I consider to be the 6 most elevated right in our -- one of the most 7 elevated rights in our constitutional society which 8 is the right to vote. 9 I think that undermining the right to 10 vote in term limits, where we are told as individual 11 voters we are not allowed to vote for people who we 12 believe are presumptively qualified, those people 13 who just serve defectively in individual voter's 14 view, that that is simply an invasion of my 15 individual right to vote and my civil liberties. 16 In that regard, the traditional way 17 to challenge term limits would be in court, you 18 would say. You would say, go to court, don't bother 19 us, the legislature, and put us in this difficult 20 political position of having to overturn, as has 21 been twice expressed as the will of the voters. 22 Well, I simply say that I would ask 23 you to wear a slightly different hat than the one 24 your normally wear as Council members. 25 You are sworn to uphold the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 60 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Constitution of the United States, you are sworn to 3 respect the individual rights of voters, as well as 4 the majoritarian rights of the body politic, and you 5 have to balance in your role as legislators the 6 individual rights versus the majoritarian rights. 7 In this context, as I think Ed 8 Wallace eloquently put it, and I would hope to be 9 able to have you remember those words, and others 10 would put it, in this context, your role as 11 individual legislators should be more of a judicial 12 nature, and you should act in your capacity to 13 uphold to your constitutional rights of the 14 individual voter to choose whom he or she wishes to 15 represent him or her and not be told by a 16 majoritarian body politic that they cannot do so. 17 And it is really as simple as that. 18 As a practical matter, these rights 19 will not be vindicated for individual voters in New 20 York City, unless this body stands up for those 21 voters and does so at their peril, at their 22 political peril, at each of your political perils. 23 But you must do so in order to protect my right to 24 vote for whom I believe should represent me. 25 Thank you very much. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 61 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MR. CROTTY: Good afternoon. My name 3 is Paul Crotty. I am appearing here as a citizen of 4 the City of New York this morning. 5 I was formerly Corporation Counsel 6 for the City of New York, and served in the Koch 7 Administration in several different capacities. I 8 sought office in 1973 to become a member of the City 9 Council. 10 What I note is that the City Council, 11 in the eighties, when I appeared here before as a 12 representative of Mayor Koch, the City Council in 13 1980s was far different than the Council was in 14 1973, and certainly the Council in 1990s was 15 different than the Council in 1980s, and the Council 16 today, in the early days of the 21st century is 17 different than the Council we had in the 1990s. So, 18 the suggestion that the Council never changes I 19 think is wrong. 20 Of course, I adopt much of what Mr. 21 Emery said, almost all of it, and I adopt what Mr. 22 Wallace said, I agree with those arguments, and I 23 would like to give you some legal predicate for the 24 action that I think that you ought to take here in 25 adopting Reso 880. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 62 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 And it is a case that comes from 3 Western New York, and there was a Mayor elected in 4 Buffalo by the name of Frank Sadida, and Frank 5 Sadida was then very popular with the democratic 6 party up there, but it was a very closely fought 7 contest when he was elected in 1957. 8 What the Republicans did up there was 9 they adopted, they went to a public referendum and 10 had a well-financed campaign, not unlike the one we 11 had here in 1993 when the citizens of the City of 12 Buffalo adopted term limits. 13 The City Council then abolished the 14 term limits along the lines of something very much 15 similar to Reso 880 and of course Mr. Vallone asked 16 before Ed Wallace what will happen, and I think 17 because this is New York City we can predict 18 litigation will occur. 19 But there is a precedent here, this 20 case has already been to the Court of Appeals. What 21 the New York Court of Appeals held in the case of 22 Cooli against Benzo back in 1961 was that the City 23 Council in Buffalo, New York, had the power to 24 abolish term limits even though those term limits 25 were adopted by popular resolution. I think that law Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 63 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 is still a good law, and, so, it is clear to me that 3 the City Council has the power to adopt legislation 4 which would abolish term limits, even though those 5 term limits were properly adopted and popularly 6 adopted in a referendum. 7 Now, some people say that is unfair 8 to the people who adopted the term limits, but I 9 would say to you, as Mr. Emery has already 10 suggested, that in each and every election, the 11 electors for particular candidates have an 12 opportunity to adopt term limits for the candidates 13 or the incumbent who submits himself or herself to 14 the scrutiny of the voters. And that is the way the 15 constitution is best applied, and that is the 16 practice here. 17 Councilman Fiala asked a number of 18 times is there any popular support for, is there any 19 evidence, empirical evidence, that people favor term 20 limits or disfavor term limits, I think the short 21 answer to that is, when incumbents submit themselves 22 to elections, they are elected and in a greater 23 degree than they are thrown out of office, which 24 would suggest there is some popular support for 25 keeping incumbents in office. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 64 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Now, people say, well, incumbents 3 have all the advantage, but the Council in its 4 wisdom has adopted a very rigorous campaign finance 5 legislation, which makes money available. I think 6 now if you look at the public debate that the mayor 7 has engaged in with the City Council, his concern is 8 that it is too expensive. And it may be too 9 expensive, but the fact of the matter is, money is 10 not going to be an issue in the campaign for City 11 Council and Citywide office in 2001, because of 12 campaign finance. So, there is a leveling of the 13 fields. I would say the power is in the citizens of 14 each of the Council districts to elect and vote for 15 the Council representative that best suits their 16 particular needs, whether it is the incumbent or an 17 insurgent, and that is the way it ought to be. 18 That is why I would encourage the 19 Council to adopt this legislation and abolish term 20 limits. 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I would like to 22 thank both of you for your testimony. I have a 23 question, though. 24 You mentioned the constitutional 25 framework, and my question would be to either of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 65 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 you, have you noticed where the vote for term limits 3 came from, and where the votes in opposition to term 4 limits were? 5 MR. EMERY: You mean throughout the 6 City? 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Yes. 8 MR. EMERY: I have not analyzed that. 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. 10 MR. CROTTY: Nor have I. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. 12 It would be interesting to have you 13 look at that and come back, or give us an answer, 14 and my question in terms of constitutionality is 15 also, is the reflection of that vote, where is it, 16 why is it where it is, and what responsibility do we 17 have in terms of that vote for the outcome of that 18 vote. 19 MR. CROTTY: Well, Madam Chair, if I 20 can suggest something. I don't think that is nearly 21 as important as the Council's efforts in terms of 22 campaign finance reform. 23 I think people know about campaign 24 finance now and their access to it, and a lot of 25 people are using this as an opportunity to present Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 66 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 their point of views. I think that is a very healthy 3 thing, and I would not want to see the Council act 4 based on their interpretation of election results in 5 1993. I think I know where you are going, but I 6 think there is better -- 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You know where I 8 am going, I am talking about 1996. 9 MR. CROTTY: Yes, but I think there 10 are better arguments that you can make to that. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I don't think 12 so, because in the elections politics, and both of 13 you know it, you target, and you target, and I think 14 that in terms of the outcome there was a target. And 15 you got the results you targeted for, and that shows 16 it because the percentage of population that didn't 17 come out indicates that the low turnout was 18 favorable. Who came out, who didn't come out. Whom 19 did you target? 20 MR. EMERY: I think your point is 21 actually in some ways a broader one. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Yes, it is. 23 MR. EMERY: And that is, there should 24 be no magic or no mystique about a referendum. 25 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: There shouldn't Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 67 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 be. 3 MR. EMERY: A referendum is simply 4 what it is. 5 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: It should be. 6 MR. EMERY: It is people who came out 7 to vote on matters which they were more or less 8 informed. And that has very much an effect in our 9 system, and it seems to, certainly on the west 10 coast, initiatives and the like, in California and 11 on the western states, have become a very popular 12 and somehow revered method of legislating. 13 In this state, under the New York 14 State Constitution, they are certainly no more 15 revered than Council or other municipal legislation 16 where they affect municipalities, and in effect 17 probably less so, because they are a disfavored 18 forum of legislating, and that is because we have a 19 republican method of representation and not a 20 straight -- we don't believe in straight democracy 21 in this state as a method of translating the will of 22 the people effectively. 23 I think we should be more conscious 24 of in this context, the individual right of the 25 voters, and that is why I have emphasized and asked Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 68 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 you to wear your judicial hats in your roles as 3 legislators. And you have. You have a quasi judicial 4 function, a judicial function as a legislator, and 5 as a legislature, to uphold the individual rights of 6 citizens. 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I believe you 8 are correct in that sense and I certainly support 9 the upholding of the individual right, and I think 10 that is very, very important. 11 The point that you made in terms of 12 the campaign finance, we recited that. That has not 13 stopped the media from referring to the do nothing 14 Council that is just trying to protect their jobs. 15 That has not affected anyone who would depict the 16 Council as a worthy entity. 17 So, while it's good legislation, 18 while it enables people to say, hey, I want to be in 19 government service, which would be respected in 20 England or Canada, it has not had the similar 21 response in New York City. 22 So, I think we misspeak when we think 23 that there is a similar understanding of government 24 service in New York City. 25 The third factor I think that we also Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 69 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 misunderstand is that New York State there is this 3 reference for the individual perception. New York 4 State you can't get to the legislature in order to 5 impose term limits because he tried, Mr. Lauder 6 tried, he couldn't make it there. That is why he did 7 it in New York City. That's why he did this in New 8 York City. He can't do it in Albany and couldn't do 9 it in Washington. So, we became the entity that he 10 worked on and worked with, and I think people should 11 understand the total picture, that we were his 12 Guinea pigs. And I think that should be stated, it 13 should be a part of the record. It should be part of 14 a record. 15 Now, my understanding in terms of law 16 is that you introduce evidence so that this body 17 just doesn't sit here and say, well, here we are. 18 But judicially this is part of the evidence where we 19 feel that you make a decision based on fact, based I 20 believe indeed constitutionally on the fact that 21 when we deprive people, and say that people haven't 22 got the intelligence to understand that every two 23 years, every four years the term of office expires, 24 you can in effect have term limits because you do 25 not have to reelect anyone to an office that you do Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 70 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 not wish them to serve in. But you are undermining 3 the intelligence of the people of the City of New 4 York every time you implement such a law. 5 And the further thing I would say 6 that constitutionally, or in terms of civil rights, 7 you violate the principles of constitution and law, 8 and you can't say well I will take this piece of it 9 and I will ignore the other. You can't ignore any 10 part of the violence you do, and that is why I bring 11 that up. 12 Thank you so very much. 13 Are there any questions for these 14 gentlemen? 15 Council Member Miller. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER MILLER: Gentlemen, 17 thank you for your testimony. 18 Let me ask you a practical question. 19 The courts have ruled that the term limits 20 referendum that was placed on the ballot in '93 and 21 '96 were both lawful referenda, right? 22 Is there anything to prevent somebody 23 from putting another referenda on the ballot in the 24 future to adopt term limits again, were this Council 25 to repeal the term limits provision? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 71 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MR. CROTTY: Not that I am aware of. 3 MR. EMERY: No. Unless of course there 4 are other ballot measures. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER MILLER: Which would 6 postpone the matter. 7 MR. EMERY: Which may postpone it, 8 that's right. 9 And there is this anomalous and 10 troublesome duality between referenda and 11 legislation in the New York City system which 12 actually should probably be addressed in and of 13 itself. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER MILLER: So, 15 theoretically we could have a situation in which 16 successive referenda are put on the ballot in posing 17 term limits, the Council then repeals them again, 18 and then somebody puts them on again, term limits 19 occur again, and then the Council repeals them 20 again. 21 Would there be anything that would 22 prevent, since the Council's powers are granted by 23 the voter referendum through the amendment of the 24 Charter, would there be anything that would prevent 25 somebody who offered another term limits referendum Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 72 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 to write at the bottom of that referendum and the 3 Council shall not have the power to repeal this 4 section? 5 MR. EMERY: I think that as an 6 amendment to the Charter -- 7 COUNCIL MEMBER MILLER: In other 8 words, when they are amending the Charter to impose 9 term limits, they would amend the Charter to say 10 that the Council wouldn't have the power to repeal 11 this section? 12 MR. EMERY: Well, you would have to -- 13 COUNCIL MEMBER MILLER: I am trying to 14 be practical here and think about what the next step 15 is going to be. 16 MR. EMERY: Yes -- 17 COUNCIL MEMBER MILLER: Because 18 obviously, if we repeal this, it's not like this is 19 going to go away. 20 MR. EMERY: Right. I understand that. 21 But I think the referenda subject matters are 22 limited, and I can't tell you whether such a 23 limitation would allow or not allow for what you 24 suggested. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER MILLER: That would be Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 73 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 very interesting I think, to me at least, I don't 3 know about the other members. 4 MR. CROTTY: I don't know the answer 5 to the question, Council Member Gifford Miller. It 6 is a question that I don't think has ever been 7 addressed, and maybe you ought to ask the 8 Corporation Counsel's Office. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER MILLER: Thank you very 10 much. 11 Thank you, Madam Chair. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Madam Chair, 13 may I introduce a point of clarification for the 14 record. 15 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 16 Watkins. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Oh, sorry. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Thank you. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: She didn't 20 hear me. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Mr. Crotty 22 and Mr. Emery, the concern that I have, and, in 23 fact, there is some information I would like. 24 I have been told that one of the 25 reasons that Ron Lauder, or others like him, have Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 74 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 not been able to introduce term limit referendum on 3 the State Legislature is because of something in the 4 State Constitution that does not permit this. If 5 that is indeed true, and if you know the answer, 6 could you explain a bit the difference between 7 whatever prohibition it might be in the State 8 Constitution, as opposed to our City Charter? 9 MR. CROTTY: I simply don't have any 10 information on that, Ms. Watkins. I can't answer the 11 question. 12 MR. EMERY: I don't know the answer 13 either. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Because my 15 own personal feeling, up until someone dropped that 16 on us, has been that it was very specifically 17 targeted at the City Council very specific and to 18 many of us obvious reasons, since there is no doubt 19 that this body is the most representative body 20 statewide, maybe even nationally, as far as 21 representing gender, ethnic background, race. Spread 22 of age, that we look like in person and on profiles 23 like the City of New York, much more than the State 24 Legislature looks like the State of New York. And it 25 is fascinating to some of us, if you look at Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 75 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 longevity and seniority in the State Legislature, it 3 makes us look like babies. 4 MR. CROTTY: I agree with all of that, 5 and I think that the results of the 2001 election 6 are going to have more changes in the Council, and 7 the Council will look very much more like the 8 continually changing democracy that we have here in 9 the City of New York, and I think that is a very 10 positive thing. 11 I have been thinking about Giff 12 Miller's question, and I don't know about the answer 13 to whether something could be adopted in the 14 referendum that says you shall not change this term 15 limit. 16 But I believe through State 17 Legislation, Council Member Watkins, the point the 18 State Legislature could adopt legislation says in no 19 City in excess of $1 million can you change or 20 impose term limits by popular referendum. The State 21 Legislature would be able to do that, and it might 22 be that if the Council successfully abolishes term 23 limits, in light of the observations you made, that 24 that ought to be a City Council or a New York City 25 legislative initiative in Albany. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 76 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Thank you. 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 4 Council Member Fiala. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Thank you. 6 Welcome, to both of you, and it is 7 good to have you here. Individually you each bring a 8 good deal of knowledge collectively, and I imagine 9 you are going to be very key players in helping us 10 shape our opinions here. 11 My interpretation is that you are 12 both in support of this introduction? 13 MR. CROTTY: That's correct. 14 MR. EMERY: Yes. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: I will not ask 16 you the same question I asked the others, Mr. Crotty 17 already answered that question, I will ask you this, 18 to both gentlemen: 19 In I think 1786 or 1787, the Virginia 20 Delegation to the Constitutional Convention offered 21 15 resolutions to help shape our United States 22 Constitution, included in those resolutions were the 23 issue of term limits, and the body as a whole 24 decided to table the issue for this reason: They 25 felt that it was too specific, too much getting into Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 77 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 the minutia, for such a general proposition as they 3 were working on. They felt that that was better left 4 to folks. That it wasn't worthy of being proscribed 5 by our federal constitution. 6 Now, I realize things can change. The 7 founders were right about a lot of things and there 8 were things they were wrong about, but over the 9 course of our history, there have been lines drawn. 10 Now, referendum is accepted in many 11 states, and the voters vote in these referendums; 12 does this issue not seem to be so close to us, this 13 is not an issue of a CCRB or a policy issue, this is 14 going back to first principles, and by first 15 principles I mean the thing that governs us, the 16 thing that keeps us from crossing the line, term 17 limits is not a policy issue, it's a first principle 18 issue. Is there anything that you could do to 19 persuade me that we would not be crossing that line? 20 Because referendums are legal. In New York City, 21 yes, it is difficult to get it, but 35 percent of 22 the people who went into the voting booth voted for 23 it. And as I said, like it or not, in America, you 24 know, if 35 percent of the people choose to vote, 25 then unfortunately the 65 percent who sat at home Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 78 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 have to live with their opinion because they chose 3 to sit on their duff and not participate. 4 So, is there anything that you can do 5 to convince me, because I would like very much to be 6 convinced, that this is not going against first 7 principles, that this doesn't cross the line? 8 MR. EMERY: I will say one thing in 9 response which I hope will help you; and that is, if 10 the implication of your question were correct, and 11 that is that a referendum was an assertion of first 12 principles left to people by the civic structure in 13 which the constitution was created, as you point 14 historically, and subsequent events, there would not 15 be, if that were the case, the parallel power in 16 this body to have this hearing today and to consider 17 this measure. 18 You have the power to address what 19 you are now elevating to something called first 20 principles where I would actually characterize them 21 as much less than first principles, I would talk 22 about first principles as being the right of the 23 individual voter to choose a presumptively qualified 24 candidate, even if that person has served two terms. 25 And consequently, I would say that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 79 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 the structure of New York City government, the 3 Charter as it now exists, recognizes, yes, the 4 importance of referenda, but puts referenda in 5 perspective, and realizing that a referenda is very 6 possibly an enactment which has less than first 7 principle validity and gives you the power to 8 address referenda, and even reverse referenda where 9 appropriate. And what we are suggesting, what I am 10 suggesting, is that this is exactly that situation, 11 where it is appropriate for you to reverse the 12 effect of an ill-advised, ill-conceived and 13 oppressive referenda, a referenda that is oppressive 14 to the individual right to vote. 15 MR. CROTTY: If I could just say in 16 layman's language, that, you know, the fact that 17 this local law was adopted by referendum does not 18 disenfranchise the City Council for changing that. 19 You still have the power to adopt local law, which 20 is what you are doing, and that is perfectly 21 appropriate. 22 And to reemphasize what Mr. Emery 23 just said, the power ought to be in the people to 24 select whomsoever they wish to select, and that is 25 what this referendum has done, I think it is unfair Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 80 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 to the people who reside in the districts throughout 3 the City. 4 And to the extent that people say, 5 well, that is the only way we can get rid of our 6 incumbents, usually in my experience, Councilman 7 Fiala, the members, the constituents in your 8 district, they like you. They might not like John 9 Sabini, they might not like Stanley Michels, because 10 they don't know them, but they know you and they 11 believe that you are doing a good job. Because as 12 soon as they don't think you are doing a good job, 13 they won't vote for you. And that is the term limit 14 that we ought to have, the one that exists for our 15 State Legislature, for our congressional delegation, 16 for our United States Senators, and I think also for 17 City Council Members, if you adopt this resolution. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: See, I told you 19 you would be important. You make a persuasive 20 argument. 21 MR. CROTTY: Thank you. You have one 22 more vote now. 23 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: But would you 24 not say also that what we would do would be I think 25 enabling a power grab, which is basically what this Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 81 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 is. 3 The meeting that you referred to was 4 a meeting of legislators, an initial meeting. It 5 wasn't one man calling in his particular club and 6 saying this is what I had planned to do. This was a 7 meeting of people who came together to discuss the 8 future of this new nation and to decide on a course 9 of action. 10 I have yet to read that this is what 11 Ron Lauder was about. 12 It was also a checkbook meeting, 13 because there was a nation that had a checkbook that 14 he held, and shortly after he finished with New York 15 City, then he embarked and went to another nation to 16 work on their political operation as well. It's like 17 have checkbook, will travel. That is his mode of 18 operation. 19 And it seems to me that if we say 20 that he is the same, he is not a founding father, he 21 is a destroyer, and we ought to recognize that and 22 we should not try to put him on a level that he does 23 not belong. And I am sorry if I offend anyone, but 24 we should recognize one thing: you say to a people 25 this kind of thing, you can have a referendum, but Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 82 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 you should have, even with Charter Revision 3 discussion, you should have dialogue, you should 4 have people who are part of a community who discuss 5 this, you put it on a ballot and then you vote it up 6 and down. You have discussion in various parts of 7 the community or the various parts of the City. I 8 don't feel, and I don't believe, that this was done 9 with the intention of saving the City and Changing 10 the City in order to provide more opportunities for 11 people to be a part of government. 12 Finally, if you have, as we 13 recognize, people who are coming into government, 14 like Mr. Fiala, Mr. Reed and other Council Members 15 who have promised, Council Member Quinn over here, 16 Council Member Quinn and others who are going to be 17 indeed asset to this City, Mr. Rivera, Council 18 Member Rivera. We are not blocking them, we help to 19 make it possible for them to come into government, 20 so you open another door that says why give the 21 money? Because you started a dissolution of a city 22 and the position that the people of the City can't 23 make decisions, we can do it for you, and the 24 decisions are not necessarily in the best interest 25 of the City, and the people stay out, we will make Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 83 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 decisions for you, and I think that is a mistake. 3 Council Member Reed. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Thank you, Madam 5 Chair. 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You are welcome. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: This is a great 8 exercise, and I hope that many people in the City 9 get to listen to this debate. I have seen this 10 Chamber turn from near circus this morning to a very 11 somber body, it might just be because you are worn 12 out, but I think it is really because of the 13 arguments and the debates that are going on here 14 that are on some levels quite fundamental to what we 15 do, and they are troubling issues that we are trying 16 to respond to. 17 One of the most fascinating parts of 18 democracy, at least the way we have established it 19 in this country and certainly in this City is that 20 there is no requirement for a quorum, and so that 21 when we have elections, contrary to many 22 organizations that we belong to, whether it is a 23 community board or a block association, there 24 doesn't have to be a quorum in order to have an 25 election stand. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 84 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 So, that if only 15 percent of the 3 voters show up, or 60 percent of them, whatever that 4 majority of that body shows up, is in fact what 5 becomes law. 6 Maybe we should have a quorum, I am 7 not sure. Maybe the fact that people don't, or have 8 not participated means that they are on some level 9 satisfied, I am not sure. 10 I have proposed legislation that 11 would make referendum and resolution similar to 12 Citywide candidates in terms of being eligible for 13 campaign finance, so that we perhaps would level the 14 playing field about resolution. There is so much 15 discussion about Ron Lauder and what he has done, 16 and I just can't help thinking of a little man when 17 I see Ron Lauder in terms of his ideas, not his 18 stature, but in terms of ideas. 19 But perhaps we ought to look at using 20 the campaign finance mechanism to subsidize the 21 debate on both sides so that we again level that 22 playing field. 23 I am conflicted about where to go and 24 what to do with this legislation that we have in 25 front of us, and some people have suggested that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 85 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 maybe if I just absent myself, that would be the 3 best thing to do. I don't think any of us were 4 elected to absent ourselves from this kind of a 5 debate. 6 And I also agree that we have the 7 power to repeal this. I don't agree that we would be 8 troubled by going to court to state our authority to 9 pass a law. 10 What does trouble me about this, Mr. 11 Emery and Mr. Crotty, and it is fascinating because 12 I think some of the reason they have called on the 13 two of you, with all due respect, is because of the 14 amount of acquired knowledge you have had in the 15 professions that you are at. You have not been term 16 limited to come and tell us the historical 17 background of where we are at. 18 Mr. Emery, it is very much because of 19 your work that I am sitting here today, and I think 20 you have made the City terrifically better by the 21 lawsuit that you helped initiate to help abolish the 22 Board of Estimate and give us a more democratic City 23 government. 24 The concern that I have, however, is 25 that, and I know now I am going to get myself in Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 86 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 trouble with my colleagues, in 1996, the Council 3 made a calculated decision to forego the legislative 4 process of changing the term limits and decided to 5 go out to the people themselves with the referendum. 6 We all know that is what happened, it failed. 7 So, this very body that now says that 8 it should have the authority to repeal the law, had 9 that very opportunity in 1996 and made a calculated 10 decision, albeit, it may have been a political one, 11 and I am not suggesting that a political decision is 12 somehow tarnished, we make them every single day. 13 That is what any of you who come to this body are 14 going to find yourselves quickly having to do is 15 make political decisions, that is what you get paid 16 to do. But the decision was made rather than to pass 17 a bill in 1996 in this body, to take this back out 18 to the people, by this legislative body, so I am not 19 sure that they abdicate their authority or their 20 ability to then come back because what we wanted 21 didn't come, to say okay I am going to do it another 22 way. 23 That's the concern, one of the real 24 linchpins of this debate going on in my mind about 25 whether we should wield that power that I think in Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 87 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 fact we do have to repeal this law, but in good 3 faith, we had had that opportunity in 1996. We put 4 forward, the City Council did, a piece, a referendum 5 that I think, if I recall my experience with it, was 6 extremely confusing, it didn't really do this and it 7 didn't really do that, which might be classic 8 legislation, I am not sure, but nevertheless, it 9 failed. And, so, that is where I am troubled to 10 understand, and perhaps you could help me understand 11 why in light of the fact that this legislative body 12 had an opportunity it did not seize it, that we 13 should allow them to have that opportunity now. 14 MR. EMERY: I would just briefly 15 respond that I think the process, maybe not the 16 timing, but the process was completely appropriate. 17 I think it makes perfect sense for this body to go 18 back to the people first, and if the people sustain 19 the desire to oppress the rights of individual 20 voters, take other action to assure those rights of 21 individual voters to be able to vote. And that is by 22 passing legislation even in the wake of a rejection 23 of this body's attempt at a referendum. 24 I wish that it had been sooner after 25 the referendum. I wish that the timing had been more Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 88 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 appropriate for your sake, because the politics of 3 it are questionable. But the principle involved, in 4 my view, is unquestioned. The principle underlying 5 your current, the current position to urge that 6 these term limits be repealed, in my view is 7 unassailable. And virtually everybody agrees on the 8 principle, that is the funny part. They just don't 9 agree on the relative power of that principle in 10 light of the referenda history underlying this 11 controversy. 12 I don't think there is even a close 13 call in that regard. I think the underlying 14 principle of the individual right to vote is so 15 overwhelmingly more important and more powerful than 16 the so-called democratic majoritarian principle that 17 was reflected in the referendum, that it is not even 18 a close question, and that is why I can come here so 19 unequivocally and advocate this position. 20 Now, there are all kinds of political 21 problems, and you identified many of them, and 22 everybody here has talked about all the civics 23 lessons and all the potential arguing competing 24 interests, but the underlying competition of 25 principles, that is the referenda versus the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 89 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 individual right to vote, for me it is a no brainer. 3 MR. CROTTY: My recollection of the 4 debate, Mr. Reed, at the time was the Council was 5 not sure that it had the power to revoke term limits 6 which had been imposed by popular referendum. 7 In my informal conversations at the 8 time I said there was no doubt about it, there was 9 already a court of appeals. But I think the Council 10 at that time thought, for the reasons that Mr. Emery 11 suggested, that if there was any doubt, the way to 12 do this was to take it to the public and have 13 another public referendum. 14 I also expressed myself at that time 15 if the Council had any doubt about its power to 16 revoke term limits by adoption of local law, what 17 they should have done was to challenge the 18 referendum in 1996 on the grounds that the Council 19 already had power to do that, but, you know, that 20 was informal advice on my part, and I guess the 21 Council made a political decision. 22 But for the very reason that Mr. 23 Emory keeps on coming back to over and over again, 24 which I agree with 100 percent, this is an 25 infringement on individual rights to vote for Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 90 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 whomsoever they choose to, and the Council clearly 3 has the power to abolish that infringement, and that 4 is what I think they ought to do, even though in 5 1996 they chose a different course. 6 Now, you still have, what Mr. Emery 7 calls these fundamental rights of individual 8 citizens, and I think those fundamental rights of 9 individual citizens must be respected, and the only 10 way to do that is to abolish term limits. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Well, I don't 12 disagree with that. And, Madam Chair, if I could 13 just make one last comment? The irony also of this, 14 and I know and I have spoken with my colleague 15 Council Member Michels about this, we have a law 16 right now that because of the way it is written I 17 have, at this moment can only serve six years. So, 18 that may be in violation of the stated first 19 sentence in the public policy statement of the law 20 that says that no person shall serve more than eight 21 years, but somehow my district, if they were to 22 choose -- maybe I will just wait until all of this 23 happens -- no matter how much they like me, would 24 not have the opportunity to have me for a full eight 25 years. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 91 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 On the other hand, there are four of 3 my colleagues who, not any chicanery or anything on 4 their part, are able to serve 11 years or 10 years, 5 even within the context of this rule. So, I think 6 that is cockamamie. I think perhaps what the law 7 ought to say is the number of years and then you 8 have got to work that out. But there is no, you 9 know, there is no extension of that, or there is no 10 truncating that because of some flaw, so that you 11 have people who are filling in for people that have 12 moved on, if you follow what I am saying. 13 But the problem is that we really 14 have, in all of this debate we have 16 people in the 15 City Council who have served more than three terms, 16 only less than one third of this body. Nine people 17 were elected in the -- started serving in the 1970s 18 that remained, seven who began serving in the 1980s, 19 and I am not characterizing any of that length of 20 service, but there is 34, not 35 of us, who 21 essentially have only been here, many of us, for 22 less than ten years. 23 And Stanley is telling me that 20 24 people are already going to step down, so maybe we 25 have already accomplished what the bill had set out Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 92 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 to do, and perhaps through this debate have already 3 accomplished that, I don't know. These are the 4 things that are running around the questions that I 5 am trying to resolve. 6 I am still troubled, however, though, 7 that we want to have a second chance, this body or 8 anybody else, to put a strategy together. Perhaps 9 this body should have reviewed it from a legal 10 standpoint and stepped up to the plate. 11 Thank you, Madam Chair. 12 MR. CROTTY: Can I make one 13 observation? I just want to praise Mr. Emery for the 14 work that he did, and also Fritz Schwarz with the 15 Charter Revision. 16 One of the reasons you have this 17 problem, Council Member Reed, is because when the 18 census comes out, as it will shortly, the City 19 Council, the Charter requires that the City Council 20 reapportion itself so that the Council districts 21 will continue to reflect the demography of the City. 22 That means that individuals, I mean I 23 think it was done, Mr. Emery may want to elaborate 24 on this, but the intent of the Charter Revision back 25 in 1989 which was approved by the voters, was that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 93 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 the Charter writers wanted to make sure we had a 3 Council that represented the City of New York. 4 Again, we wanted to make sure, and 5 that is why we had 51 Council districts, as opposed 6 to 35, so there was opening up of things, and there 7 was broad consultation on this. 8 This term limits cuts against Charter 9 Revision because it inhibits the people having the 10 right to choose who they want. 11 So, I think it is terribly unfair to 12 you, and it shows you the inequity of term limits, 13 they say eight years but you are six years. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Yes. And if I 15 could just -- 16 MR. CROTTY: These term limits can go 17 on for 12 or 11 years -- 18 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: And we have read 19 in the newspaper that in New Jersey the Federal 20 Courts and the Census Bureau is issuing preliminary 21 data, so that localities in New Jersey and perhaps 22 even the state can in fact redistrict in time for 23 the election this year. 24 In 1989 and 1990, if I recall, the 25 discussion was that perhaps we would institute this Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 94 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 new body of 51 in 1993, but there was such a clamor 3 to move to this new form of government, that the 4 argument was, no, we should not make the people 5 wait, and, in fact, we should put that body and that 6 election into reality in 1991. 7 We were able then to use the 1990 8 census data in order to draw the districts for 1991, 9 and it was very contentious and we had to go to 10 court. 11 So, I don't understand why all of a 12 sudden now that we have expanded to 51, made the 13 real heavy-lifting decisions about where the 14 boundaries should be, that somehow we can't 15 accomplish it in 2000, in 2001, with 2000 census 16 data. It is all there, it could be done, which 17 would, of course, have eliminated this piece. 18 But the issue, as Mr. Emery stated, 19 and it is all easy for us to have this great moral 20 concept about, you know, you said there may be a 21 super majority, if you didn't have to impose 22 politics on it. That is what we get paid to do. 23 There is nothing wrong with that. That is the moral 24 quandary that we find ourselves. How I at the end of 25 this, or any of my colleagues, at the end of this Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 95 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 debate, and I see many of us going like this here 3 with this debate, how at the end of this and next 4 year, next week, we go out to the people who elected 5 us and explain what we have done, and I think all of 6 us will have to explain it honestly and will stay on 7 the consequences of it, that is not a bad thing that 8 we have to do. 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 10 Henry. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER HENRY: Yes, thank you, 12 Madam Chair. 13 I just would like to piggy-back on 14 what my colleague recently just said about going 15 back to our districts in order to explain what we 16 have done. I don't think that some of us who 17 represent minority districts will have any problem 18 in explaining to our constituencies what we have 19 done. Because my district, which is the 45th 20 Councilmanic district, did not support term limits; 21 how do we determine the will of the people in that 22 case? 23 The bill before us I would place in 24 three categories: one, is to determine the true will 25 of a minority electorate; and, two, it poses on us a Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 96 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 matter of conscience, voting our conscience on this 3 bill. 4 And thirdly, how would we respond to 5 a well-financed campaign or individual who puts a 6 referendum on the ballot which sways the minds of 7 the electorate on its behalf? The people were not 8 sufficiently informed, the way I see it. 9 And secondly, the people elected us 10 to act on their behalf. Where do we draw the line? 11 Are we setting a precedent by not supporting this 12 bill? And going along with the so-called will of the 13 people? To my mind we will be setting a precedence 14 because it will not prevent any rich individual in 15 the future of not presenting on a referendum any 16 wish and whim that he or she may have. 17 I think that as an individual 18 representing a minority district, a district that 19 has spoken to the effect that they are not 20 supportive of term limits, do I honor that 21 individual right, the individual rights of that 22 minority district, or do I honor the collective 23 rights of the electorate by opposing this bill? 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 25 White. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 97 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER WHITE: Thank you very 3 much, Madam Chair. 4 Just for my clarification, I am 5 listening to the issues, and I have read about the 6 trust issue, betraying the voters of the City of New 7 York. I happen to have a different view, and I just 8 want from your legal standpoint of view, Mr. Emery 9 and Mr. Crotty, to assist me in this. 10 For good, bad and different, I mean, 11 I go back from a different perspective than maybe 12 some of my colleagues, and maybe some of my 13 colleagues that don't. As an African-American male, 14 it took us a long time to get here. I imagine for 15 women it took us a long time to get here. The 16 diversity you see with this body, took us a long 17 time to get here. And I can't help but draw upon 18 some of my experiences that I share not only as an 19 African-American, but with some of my Jewish fellows 20 and their struggle as well, in the civil rights 21 movement, and that is the civil right to vote and 22 what it really means. 23 And I am not talking from the 24 standpoint of Council Member Tom White worrying 25 about whether or not he can stay here for 20 years, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 98 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that is not my issue. I have always been a fighter 3 for the right. I have always been a fighter for 4 people who are against people who kept me from a 5 right I knew I had. I never fought for a right, I 6 fought against the people who tried to deny me 7 exercising a right that I knew I had. And what this 8 referendum tells me, and correct me, if you relate 9 to the individual voter, is not so much, is not so 10 much voting for Tom White or Sabini or Watkins, it 11 is saying to the voter you cannot vote for Watkins 12 and Sabini. I don't care how you think they are. 13 They could be doing a fantastic job. But what we are 14 telling you is we have taken away the right for you 15 to vote for someone that you would like to have. 16 That is my position. It is not against the issue of 17 people having a right to vote is the fact that I see 18 this as taking the right to vote away. And that is 19 something I have been fighting against all my life. 20 And I see it in that vain, and there are going to be 21 people that agree with me, people that disagree with 22 me, and you know what? The bottom line, those who 23 disagree with me, and those that agree with me, we 24 all are winners. 25 But if I went the other way, if I Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 99 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 went and upheld to keep it as is, then somebody is 3 losing, and when they lose, we all lose. And I think 4 that I keep hearing about, well, you know, it is too 5 late, we should have done this, we should have done 6 that, but in my civil rights struggle, and having 7 gone to jail for the right to vote as a young man 8 coming out of the service, you know, it is never too 9 late for what we are really talking about, for what 10 I am talking about, and that is to maintain the 11 right for each individual's vote to mean something. 12 Of course, if you put a referendum on 13 the ballot that serves a precious few, and it was 14 voted overwhelmingly, and it went against other 15 people, I am quite sure this body would have no 16 problem with changes. 17 And, so, what I am asking you is, my 18 view of saying that that referendum represents 19 taking away the right for people to vote, bottom 20 line. Forget how long I am going to be here, not be 21 here, but it takes away the fundamental right of a 22 person to vote for whom they want. 23 MR. EMERY: You said it much better 24 than I have. I agree with you completely. 25 MR. CROTTY: I was just thinking as Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 100 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 you were speaking, Tom, about, you know, if I live 3 out in Jamaica and I know of your record in drug 4 treatment, and I know of your record in community 5 boards and know of your record at the City Council 6 in making sure that your neighborhood was fairly 7 treated, you had adequate police and fire and water 8 and sanitation services, and then I am told, Paul, 9 you can't vote for him because he has been there for 10 ten years already, I mean I think that is unfair to 11 me. I don't particularly care about you, I mean I 12 care about my vote, which is Mr. Emery's point. 13 MR. EMERY: Right. 14 MR. CROTTY: I want to vote for you 15 and I am deprived of that because of the term 16 limits. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER WHITE: Thank you, 18 Madam Chair. 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 20 Council Member Linares. 21 Just remember -- 22 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: I will try to 23 be brief. 24 I want to also echo the 25 acknowledgment of the leadership that you have Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 101 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 provided this City and your contribution, and I 3 think it is not taken lightly, that your judgment 4 and your opinion and your position carries a lot of 5 weight. 6 I would not be here, Mr. Emery, as 7 the first Dominican elected to government in the 8 United States had it not been for the efforts that 9 many like you undertook in the late eighties. And 10 because of term limits, the voters that brought me 11 here now for a third time do not have a choice to 12 send me back here. And even if we approve this, I 13 have taken myself out of the process to make the 14 point that I think you so eloquently convey, that 15 the power of the vote should be the ultimate say in 16 a democracy. 17 I recall the process that expanded 18 this Council, that brought a number of us here, 19 people of color, Latinos, African-American, and I 20 recall how much effort we are giving to strike a 21 balance between the power of the executive power and 22 this power. 23 I also know that when the first 24 referendum was passed in '93 there was a movement in 25 this country, financed primarily by the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 102 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 conservatives in this country, to change the rules 3 of the game in the middle of the process. 4 My question to you is, after an 5 exercise that I think was exemplary for the rest of 6 the country in restructuring government for the City 7 of New York, did you feel, Mr. Emery, or for both of 8 you, that what Lauder, Ron Lauder managed to do with 9 his wealth and his power, was to undermine the 10 exercise that the citizens of New York undertook to 11 really establish a functioning government for them, 12 more representative and more balanced, did you feel 13 that what was done was undermined by what was an 14 artificial intrusion into what was so carefully 15 crafted in 1989? 16 MR. EMERY: I most certainly do. And I 17 think that becomes more starkly clear now that you 18 have a campaign finance law which is so effective 19 and in effect really does level the playing field. 20 I think that in Charter Revision 21 there could have been term limits and there weren't 22 and there were delicate compromises and delicate 23 balances undertaken in the whole Charter Revision 24 process. My colleague Mr. Crotty knows that only too 25 well. He was very much a part of that. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 103 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 And, so, I do think that term limits 3 was throwing the bomb into the delicate clock of the 4 governmental balances. 5 I also think that one has to think 6 about this in terms of the individual right to vote 7 in the context of the individual right to vote for a 8 reform of the system, versus the individual right of 9 the vote to vote for a candidate. Those are two 10 somewhat different things. 11 The essence of our individual right 12 to vote in this democracy is the right to vote for a 13 candidate, and we are now talking about taking that 14 away by elevating over that right, the right to vote 15 for a reform in the system by the majority. 16 I don't think the two in reality, in 17 political science, and in the meaningful basis in 18 which you look at constitutional values, are 19 comparable. And that is why majoritarian values are 20 not as important in a context like this, as 21 individual values. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: Thank you. 23 MR. CROTTY: I would like to say one 24 thing. 25 I think it is wrong to demonize Mr. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 104 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Lauder. After all, he put this proposition to the 3 people, and he was exercising his rights. I think it 4 is wrong-headed, and I think you have an opportunity 5 to correct it, but I don't think we make much 6 headway by demonizing proponents of the term limit 7 resolution. 8 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I am going to 9 restrict any further questions, there are just two 10 more people, and the reason I am going to do this is 11 not because there isn't a fount of wisdom over there 12 that we need, but I want to get to the public who is 13 sitting there. So, I am asking you not to ask any 14 more questions, okay? 15 So, Council Member Lopez, and I am 16 taking one more person, because in a sense he is 17 male, so I can't say this is his maiden voyage, but 18 this is his, we have a newly elected Council Member, 19 Council Member Rivera, and this will be his first 20 question, and I told him I am grading him. So, he is 21 going to ask the final question for the Council 22 members. 23 This is only questions, so please, we 24 don't want to have everyone's feelings laid on the 25 alter at this moment. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 105 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Thank you. 3 Council Member Lopez. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: First a point 5 of clarification. I am sad that Council Member Reed 6 is not here in order for me to clarify this point, 7 but I want to clarify that this -- oh, he is there 8 -- that this Council is not the same Council that 9 dealt with the issue in 1996. This is a new Council, 10 and every four years, when elections occur, we have 11 a new Council in place. Then I was not in 1996 in 12 here. If I was here in 1996, I promise you alone I 13 would reintroduce that piece of legislation that we 14 are dealing today with. 15 Then clarifying that, Mr. Emery, 16 recently in California, a county of California, 17 passed a referendum in which they approved marijuana 18 as a substance that should be legal and be allowed 19 to produce, use and circulate in that county. It was 20 passed by a majority of people recently, no more 21 than a month ago. 22 What do you think the Legislature of 23 California should do with that referendum. 24 MR. EMERY: Well, I think that the 25 federal law preempts and overrides any local Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 106 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 ordinance like that. It may well be that the state 3 law does as well. So, there are clearly referenda 4 which are plainly illegal. 5 There are others which are invasive 6 of individual rights, and that is very often the 7 case of referenda, because they are majoritarian 8 operations, and the majority often is in a position 9 of overriding individual rights. And I think that is 10 what we have here, and it shouldn't be respected. 11 That is basically my point. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Then that is 13 precisely my point, that when we have a referendum 14 in place, it is your opinion, or not, that we need 15 to look at this referendum in the quality of what 16 they are about and what they are trying to achieve, 17 and how they are trying to achieve their goals, and 18 depending on what these referendums are about, 19 responsible legislative bodies must take a look at 20 them and take leadership and action that reflect 21 what we are here for and what we were elected for. 22 MR. EMERY: I agree completely, and I 23 think you do so in the context of referenda that 24 affect rights such as the one here, and what would 25 be considered virtually a judicial capacity in the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 107 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 legislative role you are playing. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Mr. Crotty, 4 before 1920 more than half the population of United 5 States were not allowed to vote in this country. As 6 a matter of fact, the people hold that as the law of 7 the land, and the people in this country prohibited 8 women from voting, people of color. And it took a 9 courageous woman and a bunch of women to start 10 campaigning to get the right to vote. 11 I follow Susan B. Anthony role model 12 myself, and I am asking you, at the time we are 13 talking about, 1920, when the people said that more 14 than half of the population of this country does not 15 have the right to vote, it was a legislative body 16 that took action and determined that was wrong. Do 17 you think they were right or wrong when they made 18 that decision? 19 MR. CROTTY: I think they are right. I 20 think there is nothing more important in a democracy 21 than a right to vote. I would hope that as we did in 22 1920 by giving women the right to vote and giving 23 all of us a right to vote, we engaged in a number of 24 projects, like Motor Voter, anything that we can to 25 increase voter participation I think is a good thing Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 108 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 for democracy and it is certainly terrific back in 3 1920. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: I thank both of 5 you. Mr. Emery, I need to tell you, I would not be 6 here today if the reforms that you headed didn't 7 take place. Today this City should hold you as a 8 hero for completing something that was critical for 9 this City, diversity and inclusion. Thank you for 10 your work. 11 MR. EMERY: Thank you. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I don't want to 13 step on his parade, but can we be included as 14 working with you? 15 MR. EMERY: Absolutely. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. Thank you 17 so very much. 18 That's because she wasn't there, so 19 that body of information, we share the same platform 20 -- 21 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: I am sorry. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: But he did a 23 magnificent job, and that is what you mean, and that 24 is what we mean when we said history and knowledge 25 is so very important. And I would say without Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 109 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Richard Emery, who went to colleges, to hospitals, 3 wherever there were forums, to lecture and to tell 4 the story and to advance the cause of what happened 5 in this City Council made it possible to go from 35 6 members, to 51 members, and to make that difference, 7 and you had people like my friend over there Mr. 8 Crotty. We didn't always agree, but you see, on 9 right issues, right people and right ideas come 10 together and we are very grateful for your presence 11 and your testimony. 12 Don't leave. Council Member Rivera. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER RIVERA: Thank you, 14 Madam Chair. 15 As a newly elected City Councilman to 16 this body, I am not affected by term limits 17 immediately, so my judgment, my opinion is solely 18 based on, you know, what is right for the community, 19 what is right for the City Council and what is right 20 for the City. 21 Everyone talks about voters' rights, 22 and in hearing all of the arguments that are in 23 place today, what about those voters that do want to 24 elect the most qualified elected officials to the 25 City Council? What about the elected officials that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 110 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 are doing a very good job in office? Do they not 3 have the right to re-elect those elected officials? 4 It becomes very, you have to be very 5 careful. In 1993, in 1996 the referendum was put on 6 the ballot for term limits, and the campaign was 7 raised by a multi-millionaire who had an unlimited 8 amount of funding to campaign, and the people in the 9 15 Council districts, which I represented, voted 10 against term limits, because of the good work that 11 was done within that district, and now they should 12 not be given -- their right to vote for elected 13 officials should not be taken away. 14 Do you feel that if the City Council 15 were able to spend the same amount of money to 16 campaign, do you think there would be a different 17 outcome within the referendum? Because as it is 18 seen, Lauder has an unlimited amount of money to put 19 into a campaign, we don't have the same amount of 20 money, and the information does not get distributed 21 to the community as it should. Do you think if we 22 had the equal financing we would have the same 23 outcome, or we would have a different outcome? 24 MR. CROTTY: I certainly can't predict 25 the outcome. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 111 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 I mean, I think what is clear from 3 what Mr. Emery and I said is that you have the power 4 to abolish term limits and protect voters' rights. I 5 think that is what you ought to do. 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you so 7 very much. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER RIVERA: Thank you. 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you, 10 Council Member Rivera. 11 All right, you will hear from us. 12 MR. EMERY: Thank you very much. 13 MR. CROTTY: Thank you. 14 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: We appreciate 15 your efforts. 16 Jeanine Kemm. Would you please 17 identify yourself by name and title and organization 18 and your position in the organization. 19 MS. KEMM: Good day. I am Jeanine 20 Kemm, and I serve as Director of New Yorkers for 21 Term Limits. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Bring the mike 23 closer to you so we can hear you. 24 MS. KEMM: Is that better? 25 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Yes, much Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 112 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 better. 3 MS. KEMM: Good day. I am Janine Kemm, 4 and I serve as Director of New Yorkers for Term 5 Limits, the statewide organization that brought to 6 balance the term limitation law this legislation 7 seeks to repeal. 8 First -- 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Is that the 10 organization organized by Ron -- Ron Lauder's 11 organization? 12 MS. KEMM: New Yorkers for Term Limits 13 is a wide coalition, Mr. Lauder plays a part in that 14 organization. He is not the organization as a whole. 15 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: But is that the 16 organization that has initiated the ballot 17 referendum? That is what I am asking. 18 MS. KEMM: Yes. 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, fine. 20 MS. KEMM: Actually, if you will allow 21 me to testify, I will -- 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you, you 23 have answered my question. Let's move on. 24 MS. KEMM: First, in the 1993 election 25 and again in 1996, over 1 million New Yorkers voted Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 113 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 for a comprehensive two-term limit on the City's 3 elected officials for Mayor through City Council. 4 Term limits won by large margins in 5 both elections and enjoyed broad support across the 6 diverse spectrum of the City's population. 7 Today, the New York City term limits 8 law continues to enjoy wide support in the 9 community. In a nonpartisan Marist Institute for 10 Public Opinion survey released on March 5th, 63 11 percent of all New Yorkers favored a veto by the 12 Mayor if this legislation somehow passes. Support 13 for a veto to protect term limits rose to 65 percent 14 among African-Americans and 65 percent in the Latino 15 community. 16 That's important because of wild 17 distortions about the term limits' impact on our 18 disenfranchised. As our legal counsel will discuss 19 in his testimony on the Voting Rights Act, the fact 20 is: This Council is a lot more white than this City. 21 And it has proven across the country that by tearing 22 down the protections of the incumbent power 23 structure, term limits opens the way for more 24 diversity, not less. 25 I freely acknowledge that opinions Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 114 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 vary about term limits. So what? That was what two 3 campaigns were about: debating the merits so the 4 voters could decide. And the voters overwhelmingly 5 decided they want term limits. 6 Every single one of the complaints we 7 have heard today, the voters heard in two, count'em, 8 two elections. They voted for term limits anyway. 9 So, I'm not here to fight old battles. I'm here to 10 demand a little respect for the voters. 11 Repealing term limits would tell 1 12 million New Yorkers their votes don't count. 13 Every election we beg people to vote. 14 It's a "civic responsibility" we say. Well, when 15 they do vote, how can we ignore them? 16 With all due respect, it is your 17 "civic responsibility" to respect the voters. 18 That's the reason a vast chorus of 19 public opinion is screaming about this scheme. The 20 New York Times, for example, was never a fan of term 21 limits. But the Time strongly opposes tampering with 22 term limits. Why? Because it violates the vote of 23 the people. 24 You'll hear from our lawyer later. 25 Yes, we're prepared to fight this in court, again. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 115 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Yes, the kind of legal mess you saw down in Florida 3 in the last election may be coming soon to a 4 courthouse near you if this thing is enacted. 5 But you don't need a lawyer to see 6 one thing: Voters don't like arrogance in the people 7 they pay to represent them. And it's the height of 8 arrogance to tell the voters you know what is best 9 for them despite their childish ideas. 10 When asked about the will of the 11 people on term limits, one of your colleagues told 12 the press, "the public is wrong". If you wonder why 13 1 million New Yorkers voted for term limits in the 14 first place, ponder that quote for a moment. 15 But despite all the hard words, in 16 summary allow me to say something positive: You have 17 a great opportunity here. You can prove the voters 18 do rule. You can defeat this term limits repeal 19 scheme. Make it go away now. Because if this passes, 20 I can assure you the issue won't go away any time 21 soon. 22 Thank you. 23 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you very 24 much. I would like to ask you a question. You are 25 the paid employee of this organization; is that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 116 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 correct? 3 MS. KEMM: That is correct. 4 And you are the paid employee of the 5 City Council; is that correct? 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. 7 I do not object to being a Council 8 member, nor do I object to being paid. My question 9 to you was based upon the fact that you mentioned 10 that you were in the organization and it's proper 11 also to ask if you are a volunteer or a paid 12 employee. 13 Now then, you knew that as a Council 14 Member, for instance, our salaries are part of 15 public record, that we are paid employees, and I 16 make no apology for being a paid member of this 17 body. 18 I have worked all my life, I have no 19 apology for that, maybe you have an apology for 20 yours but I don't have any for mine. 21 Now, I am going to ask you another 22 question and you will answer in a civil manner, as I 23 have spoken to you in a civil manner. Let's get on 24 with it. 25 The next part of my question to you Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 117 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 is this: When you mentioned the fact of the Council, 3 we are here in a hearing to ascertain facts. 4 MS. KEMM: Yes. 5 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: This is not a 6 confrontation, it is a question so that we may 7 elicit information from you. That's all this is. 8 MS. KEMM: I understand. 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And you said 10 that Council members should be respectful of those 11 we serve. Respectful is what has gotten us elected 12 and re-elected, and when you come into someone's 13 home or you speak to them, no matter what their 14 title, no matter who they are, you also treat them 15 with respect. So, I would suggest to you that you 16 apply that same principle to yourself. 17 (Outburst from the audience.) 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Now, then, you 19 are going to be asked to leave, and I will see that 20 you are escorted out. 21 Excuse me. Would you take her out. 22 Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. You have 23 done this all afternoon. Good-bye. We will miss you. 24 (Outburst from audience.) 25 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. Walk Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 118 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 him out and walk him with her. 3 Now, then, so I would ask you please 4 to respond in the same manner. 5 MS. KEMM: Could you repeat the 6 question? I am sorry, I was disrupted. 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Now, then, you 8 did not hear us treat anyone with disrespect who 9 came before us. We don't intend to treat you in any 10 manner with less respect -- 11 MS. KEMM: I believe you talked about 12 Mr. Lauder with disrespect and flagrant 13 inaccuracies, might I add. 14 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. 15 MS. KEMM: If you have a specific 16 question I am here to answer that. 17 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: What you believe 18 is one thing, what you believe is one thing, but 19 this is a hearing, we ask you questions, you are 20 supposed to answer those questions. And everyone 21 else answered those questions, it was not a question 22 of what they believed or I believed or anyone else, 23 and that is all we want from you. 24 MS. KEMM: I understand. I haven't 25 heard a question to answer. That is what I don't Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 119 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 understand. 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You answered a 4 question before and you answered it in a very rude 5 and inappropriate manner. 6 MS. KEMM: Do you have a specific 7 question you would like me to answer, Madam 8 Chairwoman? 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: No. 10 Is there any other Council Member? 11 Council Member Michels, you may ask 12 your question. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Thank you, 14 Madam Chair. 15 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And then Council 16 Member Watkins after this. 17 Council Member Fiala will follow 18 Council Member Watkins. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Ms. Kemm, I 20 am appreciative of your being here, and I have never 21 met you before and I look forward to having 22 conversations with you, but I must say to you that 23 you are entitled to your own opinion, and I applaud 24 you for that. Unfortunately, you are not entitled to 25 your own facts. Facts are facts and an opinion is an Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 120 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 opinion. 3 You stated in your statement that at 4 first in 1993, and I am reading from your statement, 5 and again in 1996, over 1 million voters, New York 6 voters, voted for comprehensive term limits. I have 7 the actual figures in front of me. 8 In 1993, there were 610,234 people 9 who voted. That is not a million. In 1996 it was 10 653,000. That's not -- 11 MS. KEMM: I have Board of Election 12 statistics that say over -- 13 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Well, this is 14 from the Board of Election figures. 15 MS. KEMM: Well, we can debate -- 16 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: There is not 17 a million voters, that is 600. 18 Now, the other thing you said, and 19 then I will ask you to explain that, too. Term 20 limits won by large margins in both elections. The 21 figures show that in 1993, it won by 194,451 out of 22 almost 1,000,900 who voted. And in 1996, it won by a 23 little more than 90,000 votes, out of almost 2 24 million votes cast. Could you explain to me why you 25 exaggerate as to these numbers and try to tell Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 121 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 people that you had overwhelming majorities? These 3 are the figures from the Board of Elections. I was 4 taken in by it until I saw the Board of Elections 5 figures myself, and then I said to myself what is 6 going on here. 7 MS. KEMM: I can tell you -- 8 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: You are not 9 entitled to your own facts. 10 MS. KEMM: I don't have my own facts, 11 I have Board of Election's facts, and over 59 12 percent of the people in the first election voted 13 for it. That is overwhelming. And over 60 percent 14 voted for it in the second election, and in combined 15 elections over a million voted for it. So, I have 16 not specifically -- 17 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: But you 18 didn't say that, you said 1 million. 19 MS. KEMM: Maybe I misspoke, but I 20 actually said in my testimony, which you have, in 21 1993 and again in 1996, over 1 million people voted, 22 and that's correct. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Implying that 24 1 million voted each time, which is not true. 25 MS. KEMM: No, that was implied a Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 122 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 combined number, which is very -- we would not try 3 to make such a mistake. That would be obviously 4 silly. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: I have read 6 some of the statements you have made in the past and 7 they continue that exaggeration. 8 MS. KEMM: I have never, ever lied in 9 the past. If you would like to point that out -- 10 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: I didn't say 11 you lied. I said you misstated the facts. 12 MS. KEMM: I have never misstated the 13 facts, that would be a lie. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: And then of 15 the number of people who voted for term limits, you 16 say that overwhelming number of people voted for 17 term limits, of the number of people who voted in 18 1993, which I said before was 1,909,088, you got 19 610,234, that together with those who voted, it is 20 only 32 percent of the vote. The same 32 percent 21 that voted in 1996. So, you can have arguments, you 22 can say these 32 percent won and everything, but, 23 please, let's stick to the facts. 24 MS. KEMM: The facts are that 59 25 percent of the people that voted for term limits on Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 123 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that ballot, for or against, for that term limit 3 referendum voted for term limits, that's a fact. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: But you 5 didn't count the people who voted that day but 6 didn't vote on term limits. 7 MS. KEMM: That is not the question. 8 The question is what percentage voted on the term 9 limits referendum. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: The question 11 is, what -- 12 MS. KEMM: There is a normal drop-off 13 in any referendum on any ballot. Term limits was no 14 different. As a matter of fact, we enjoyed slightly 15 better than most referendums do, we had a slightly 16 better turnout than most referendums. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: But you are 18 the one who is saying that 59 percent of the people 19 who voted for term limits. That's not true. 20 MS. KEMM: That's correct. Fifty-nine 21 percent of the people that voted -- 22 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: The people 23 who voted that day was 32 percent. Thank you very 24 much. 25 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You have proven Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 124 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that the facts are incorrect, let's move on to 3 another question. 4 MS. KEMM: That is not true, Council 5 Member. If you would like to stand there and -- 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me, is 7 your name Council Member Michels? 8 MS. KEMM: No, but I am here for 9 public information and you are dispersing it in the 10 wrong manner. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Is your name 12 Council Member Michels? 13 Council Member Michels, do you have 14 another question? 15 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: No. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 17 Council Member Watkins, next 18 question. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Thank you. 20 Ms. Kemm, in your testimony, on the 21 first page, you say this Council is a lot more white 22 than this City. Would you care to explain a little, 23 or shall I go on? 24 MS. KEMM: I have empirical data, 25 which our lawyer will be discussing with you. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 125 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Forget your 3 lawyers, just let's you and I talk. 4 MS. KEMM: I don't have the data in 5 front of me, but he has it and he will give you the 6 numbers, and it is absolutely positively true. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Well, you put 8 it in your statement. 9 MS. KEMM: I also put in my statement 10 our lawyer will discuss it. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Ms. Kemm, I 12 am asking you a question about this statement in 13 your presentation. 14 Now, since you put it in there you 15 obviously had a purpose; what was the purpose? 16 MS. KEMM: The purpose is that there 17 are disproportionate reflection of the community on 18 this Council, and that's a fact. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Okay, Ms. 20 Kemm, you are right. However, with the 21 reapportionment and the new Charter my county went 22 from one representative of color to four. 23 Now, maybe we could have gone to 24 more, however, do you have some idea of why we have 25 not yet achieved the exact or almost exact Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 126 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 representations of people of color sitting on this 3 Council; would you care to speak to that? 4 MS. KEMM: Well, I can only tell you 5 the facts, and that is that the top eight positions 6 of power on this Council are held by white men. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: No, no, no, 8 that is not what I asked you. 9 MS. KEMM: What was your specific 10 question? 11 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: I am sure you 12 hear well, and I know I speak well. The question 13 was, would you care to make some comment as to why, 14 as you say, the people of color who live in the City 15 of New York are not represented by exact percentages 16 or nearly exact percentages on this City Council? 17 MS. KEMM: I would assume it is 18 because they don't have a chance to win. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Well, you 20 know what they say about making assumptions, and if 21 you don't know, I will tell you privately after. 22 Let me tell you why. Had your folks 23 used some of this same zeal into dealing with 24 housing and real estate and mortgage brokering in 25 the City of New York, you would realize that many of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 127 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 us live in the same area, not because we would be 3 uncomfortable other places, but because realtors, 4 mortgage brokers, red lining and discrimination 5 force us into enclaves where you find 90 percent 6 Latinos in some areas, 90 percent blacks in other 7 areas, and you are finding large numbers of Asians 8 the same way. 9 So, when you make a statement about 10 there are more whites in the Council than in the 11 City, it is not because the Council and some great 12 white father in the back room set it up that way, it 13 is because those people who have the wherewithal, 14 and are spending it looking to put people of 15 caliber, quality and caring out of their seats in 16 here, might well take the money, take the time and 17 take their marching to realtors, mortgage brokers, 18 red lining and those who would discriminate against 19 people who are crowded into areas which force one 20 seat where there should be two or three. 21 MS. KEMM: Madam Chairwoman, may I 22 respond to that? Term limits has patently across the 23 nation opened up seats to more minorities and more 24 women. That's the answer. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Your answer Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 128 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 does not answer the question. You didn't know the 3 answer. 4 MS. KEMM: I can't speak -- 5 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: You told me 6 you thought it was -- we don't need another answer 7 on that. Asked and answered. 8 Move on. 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you so 10 very much. 11 Council Member Fiala. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Thank you, 13 Madam Chair. 14 Welcome, Ms. Kemm. 15 MS. KEMM: Thank you. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: I appreciate 17 your being here. I appreciate that we all have a 18 right to be here and hold our opinions, that is what 19 makes this a great nation. 20 As I try to resolve this issue in the 21 jury of my own mind, because one thing that no one 22 will be able to take away from me is this vote, for 23 as long as I hold this seat, and I think I, like 24 every other member here, takes that charge very, 25 very seriously. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 129 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 I want to ask you a couple of 3 questions, and I appreciate your answers to them. 4 The issue of term limits -- well, I 5 want to be careful how I frame things. 6 Would you agree that a surgeon 7 becomes more proficient with each surgery performed? 8 MS. KEMM: I am not an expert in the 9 medical field. I really wouldn't be qualified to 10 answer that question. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Would you agree 12 that a teacher probably becomes, I use the word 13 probably, probably becomes a more proficient 14 teacher? 15 MS. KEMM: I think generalities are a 16 bad business to be in. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Do you think 18 that experience matters? 19 MS. KEMM: I do. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Now, I am 21 unresolved on this issue because of the process. But 22 make no mistake, I believe we headed on the slippery 23 slope that will place our democracy in jeopardy when 24 we adopted term limits, because I believe it was an 25 inappropriate means to a justifiable end. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 130 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Experience does matter, we all agree 3 on that. Let me ask you this: Would you feel more 4 comfortable with an experienced legislator, casting 5 votes, juxtaposed to one who, like myself, will only 6 be able to serve a total of six years and have to 7 rely more heavily on an experienced bureaucrat? 8 MS. KEMM: No. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Should the 10 power be vested in me and my ability to gain 11 experience and knowledge with each passing year, or 12 should I have to rely more heavily on the 13 bureaucrats that will be the permanent government, 14 not elected by the people? 15 MS. KEMM: I appreciate your question. 16 It's a very good question. 17 When I said experience matters, I 18 think the vast majority of this room assumed I meant 19 experience in government. I did not. 20 Experience in government can be a 21 good thing, experience in business can be a good 22 thing, experience as a doctor can be a good thing. 23 The point is, that the voters should choose, with a 24 98 percent reelection rate the incumbents win. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Your point is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 131 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 made. Now let me ask you this: The voters in my 3 district, I will take two examples; the 50th 4 Councilmanic District, and the 51st, for which I 5 represent. 6 I am permitted to run for two terms, 7 one four year and one two-year. The Council Member 8 in the 50th District can serve up to 11 years. Is my 9 grandmother, who lives in my district, or her 10 neighbor, being robbed the same opportunity that the 11 Council member in the 50th District, his constituent 12 has, why is it right that a senior citizen in my 13 district only be permitted to vote for me twice, 14 have me serve six years, and yet a senior citizen, 15 or any constituent, any eligible voter, in another 16 district get that person for 11 years? Is there an 17 inherent inequity there that is robbing the voter of 18 their choice, since it is about voter choice? 19 MS. KEMM: That is what the voter 20 wanted. They knew, this was debated in schools, in 21 community groups, they knew some people, not because 22 of the term limits law, because of whole different 23 reasons, some people would get two-year terms and 24 some would get more. 25 The point is that this was all Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 132 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 debated in 1996 and 1993 and they overwhelmingly 3 wanted it. 4 So, I understand, and I appreciate 5 your concern, and I do feel that a lot of the 6 concern is heartfelt, but my point is that it is 7 what the voters wanted. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Then if I may, 9 Madam Chair, just one or two more questions? 10 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Yes. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: I voted twice, 12 both times to avoid term limits, and it is 13 heartfelt. I have studied it in school. I feel I am 14 being robbed my God-given right as a citizen of this 15 country. But I came on the losing side. I did not 16 know at that time, and I have not found one other 17 Council member, because we have had honest 18 discussions about this, and it's embarrassing, 19 because maybe we should have, maybe the 35 percent 20 who voted for it knew something more than we did, 21 but when I went into the booth, and I only speak for 22 myself and my family, we did not know two terms 23 meant one four and one two, or one three, two two 24 and one four - we did not know that. And I don't 25 think there is another member in this room -- I want Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 133 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 to be very careful because I can't speak for 3 everyone -- but I think the majority, based on my 4 discussions with people across their dining room 5 tables, they didn't know. 6 I respect our process enormously, 7 that is what this is about to me. It is a very 8 difficult decision to have to make to balance, as I 9 said, because there is something larger than Steve 10 Fiala here, and it is very hurtful that we 11 oversimplify things, Madam Chairman, that the media 12 and the proponents on one side, and the proponents 13 on the other side, personalize it that it is about 14 Steve Fiala, or it is about Una Clarke, or that we 15 are all lazy and shiftless, we can't get other jobs 16 - it assumes that all of us simply came here 17 without any ounce of concern or care. 18 So, I take this decision very, very 19 seriously, because I don't, on the one hand, want to 20 place in jeopardy the real issue, and that is 21 protecting our form of deliberative democracy, 22 representative government, that is what the republic 23 of America, not republican party, we are a 24 republican form of government. It means the people 25 do not decide, the people vote for the people who Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 134 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 decide, because as Edmund Burke did say, legislators 3 owe their constituents, not only their industry, 4 their individual expertise. If I am a teacher and I 5 come here, wonderful; if I am a doctor, wonderful; 6 if I come the private sector, wonderful; if I am a 7 lawyer, wonderful; if I am a bureaucrat from 8 government, wonderful; but you owe them not only 9 that industry, but your judgement, and you betray 10 them if you sacrifice their momentary opinion or 11 ill-informed opinion, you betray them, you betray 12 the public trust. So that you are not in any way 13 getting opinion of where I am going, I am still 14 undecided, but I want you to know this Council 15 member, and he believes every other one of them, 16 takes this very seriously, and it is not about their 17 own political hide, that's just too easy an answer. 18 So, I ask you this question, because 19 I would like to know. I am not happy with this 20 process, I am not happy with going about it this 21 way, but I am wondering, if we had gone about it the 22 referendum route, and we had wanted to set up 23 debates across the City, have equal time and equal 24 money, would that have been accepted? Would we have 25 been challenged in court? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 135 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MS. KEMM: Well, we did this twice 3 already. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: I know. But if 5 we wanted to do it again, because democracy -- 6 MS. KEMM: I will tell you this: Last 7 time with union involvement, New Yorkers For Term 8 Limits was outspent by the opposition. So, the money 9 argument needs to be reexamined very closely. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: May I ask, 11 because I am not an expert on this, may I ask how 12 much money was spent on your side? 13 MS. KEMM: I don't have my figures 14 here today. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Okay. 16 MS. KEMM: But I can get them to you. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: I would 18 appreciate it if you would get it to the chair as we 19 go through -- 20 MS. KEMM: I am just stating for the 21 record that there were a lot of organizations that 22 were working in coordination with the opposition, 23 and they spent a lot of money, a lot of time doing 24 phone banking, a lot of time sending mailings, and 25 that all counts. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 136 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Okay. And one 3 final question then. The people have spoken twice 4 you said, and I respect your opinion. Someone said I 5 may not agree with it, but I will always respect a 6 person's right to hold their opinion. 7 If we were to come back next year, a 8 whole new class -- because you know what is 9 happening here, it is ironic, it is ironic to me, 10 Madam Chair, this City has campaign finance reform, 11 which is a real solution to the perceived corruption 12 and lacksidaisical attitude that people have of 13 politicians, because it has leveled the playing 14 field. Yet, at the same time, the very City, and the 15 legislators therein that are taking a stand on 16 formulating answers that really will work, you know, 17 the tough answers, not the systemic or systematic 18 kneejerk response, but that is the legislature that 19 is being thrown out, and it's ironic that in a 20 nation where the federal government has no campaign 21 finance system yet, and the State government has no 22 campaign finance system yet, the turnover there is 23 so much less, and here we are -- and please indulge 24 me for just three minutes, please -- here we are, if 25 we were to take the numbers as they are, next year, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 137 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 January 1st, this City will have a new Mayor, a new 3 Public Advocate, and a new Comptroller, the three 4 Citywide officials. This City will have four brand 5 new Borough Presidents, this City will have no more 6 -- you will have 16 Council members in total who 7 have a shelf life, depending on me two more years, 8 someone else another two terms, we will have no more 9 than four years' experience with the exception of 10 one, who I think will have six years' experience. 11 Is it reasonable to ask, given the 12 fact that since 1978 60 new members have entered 13 this body, which means that 60 have been thrown out 14 of have retired, and that 16 have entered since 15 1997, and that 20 of the 35 currently being thrown 16 out would not come back if they were allowed. That 17 means that even if we repeal this, only 15 members 18 would return with more than four years' experience 19 out of a body of 51, because 20 are leaving. 20 Have we not, and this is my final 21 question, because as I said, democracy is about 22 constantly looking internally and making 23 reassessment. If we stuck by the will of the people, 24 and this is very, very important, our founding 25 fathers crafted the greatest document of self Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 138 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 government ever conceived by mankind, but it had its 3 deficiencies, and over the course of 200 years, 4 legislators and citizens alike corrected the 5 failings, the fallibility of those original 6 founders, things like the Civil Rights Act, things 7 like a woman's right to choose, Council Member 8 Lopez, and so many other things. The reason we did 9 that is because democracy means the situation is 10 fluid, we do not stand still. We are always creating 11 a better tomorrow. And sometimes that means making a 12 reassessment about first principles. 13 So, in light of the statistics I have 14 just provided, would it be appropriate to come back 15 next year, take a look at this and say through 16 natural occurrence we have gotten a turn-over of so 17 many in this City? We will be left with 15, and is 18 it appropriate then to maybe go one more time and go 19 back to the people, not through slick commercial, 20 but through town hall meetings, where people like 21 yourself, who are very articulate and passionate, 22 and I believe you believe this sincerely, and some 23 of us on the other side; because my fear is if we 24 don't eventually revisit this, we will cosign our 25 citizens to relying on bureaucrats. God bless them, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 139 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 they are wonderful people, but you have just given 3 up the one thing that you have been given by your 4 founding fathers, that's your right to really hold 5 the elected responsible for his or her actions. 6 Sometimes we cut our nose to spite our face. I ask 7 you if next year is a time to revisit this? 8 MS. KEMM: No. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Thank you. 10 MS. KEMM: You can't assess something 11 that hasn't gone into effect. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. Fine. 13 One reason I would never ask that is because one of 14 the reasons you are not going to get anywhere is the 15 problem with Ron Lauder is he tried to win for Mayor 16 and he lost. He tried to run for other positions and 17 he lost. And a loser has a problem, if he loses 18 where he has and he thinks -- 19 MS. KEMM: Is this your consideration 20 of noble dialogue at a hearing for public knowledge? 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me, this 22 is not about you. 23 And what we have here is a situation 24 where -- 25 MS. KEMM: It's inaccurate besides. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 140 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: -- He sees this 3 as winning. And I think that the comments that you 4 made were accurate and very effective, and what we 5 are talking about is what indeed are the issues that 6 would cause this Council to think or consider 7 changing the direction of the vote or the decision 8 in terms of term limits, and to enact that 9 legislation or to remove itself from the restriction 10 of the term limits, and I think that is the way we 11 can go. 12 I don't think you can negotiate with 13 Ron Lauder, or the people he sends in, you cannot 14 negotiate with them. And so at this point we are 15 considering our position, where do we go from here? 16 Is there a reason for us to take an action? Is there 17 a reason for this body to consider this legislation? 18 Is this a wise decision or unwise decision? And what 19 indeed should be the course of this Council? And 20 that is where we have to go. 21 I think by the fact that information 22 that should be at her fingertips, she cannot 23 provide, the overwhelming, this million votes. You 24 have a million votes you could give that 25 immediately, we got no response. If you could give Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 141 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 certain things in terms of cost, I didn't hear that. 3 Council Member Linares, you have a 4 question? 5 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: Yes, one 6 quick question. 7 I would like to ask Ms. Kemm, how 8 much did New Yorkers For Term Limits spend to 9 finance the 1993 referendum and for the 1996 10 referendum; can you give that to us? 11 MS. KEMM: I can't give you an exact. 12 I can give you an estimate. Over a million dollars 13 in each probably. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: Over a 15 million dollars? Maybe I can help you, because I 16 have in front of me the Board of Election disclosure 17 documents that were submitted by you to them -- 18 MS. KEMM: As I said, it is not an 19 exact, I don't have it in front of me. This really 20 is not the issue here. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: I am going to 22 give you the numbers. In 1993, which is 23 documentation that you provided here, indicates that 24 you spent $5,152,989, out of which only 43,000 were 25 donated by others and the rest was spent, were all Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 142 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 financed -- okay, this is -- 3 MS. KEMM: That's not right. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: Totals of '93 5 and '96. When you add '93 and '96 you have a total 6 of $5,152,000. In 1996, you spent $2,237,345, and 7 all of it was donated by Ron Lauder, with the 8 exception of 111 donations totaling $14,760. That 9 was the 1996. 10 In 1993, you spent $2,815,600, 11 approximately. And, again, there by and large the 12 bulk of it was donated by Ron Lauder. So, basically 13 what this tells me is that the financing of this 14 entire effort to artificially impose this process on 15 what was established in the Charter in '99 was 16 literally financed by one single, powerful, 17 economically speaking individual. 18 MS. KEMM: Well, I don't have those 19 numbers, but whatever was legally there was there. I 20 am not denying, I am guessing off of the top of my 21 head. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: That's a 23 signature of someone -- 24 MS. KEMM: I would mention this. 25 Obviously we submitted them. We are not hiding them. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 143 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 I just don't know them off the top of my head 3 because they are not the point. I know it is a lot 4 easier to hit one man, Ron Lauder, than to deal with 5 the will of the people. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: When you say 7 -- 8 MS. KEMM: Is it my turn to respond? 9 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: Yes. But when 10 you say you spent $1 million. 11 MS. KEMM: I did not. I said over a 12 million, I don't have those numbers at my hand. I am 13 not trying to hide it. I'm not stupid, I know they 14 are there. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: Five million 16 is a lot of money -- 17 MS. KEMM: And I know you are going to 18 look at them. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: -- Spent by 20 one single individual. 21 MS. KEMM: Councilman, am I allowed to 22 speak now? 23 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: Yes, you are. 24 MS. KEMM: Thank you. 25 The point, I know it is so much Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 144 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 easier to hit one guy, I know it is so, so easy, but 3 it is wrong. Over a million voters voted for this in 4 two elections. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: The facts 6 don't lie and they are here, how much was spent. 7 MS. KEMM: I didn't want to get to 8 this level, quite frankly. I could bring out all the 9 union records that did phone banking, we could talk, 10 we could go back and forth - it's not the point. The 11 point is the people. We could sit here all day and 12 talk about things that don't matter, but what 13 matters is that you respect the will of the voter. 14 It has been explicitly expressed in 15 two elections that were deemed legal. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: What matters 17 is democracy is not for sale. That's what matters. 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. 19 Council Member Harrison, then Council 20 Member Marshall. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: Yes, I have 22 a question, since we are talking about money and 23 expenditures that were made in such huge sums, and I 24 wonder if I can get from you some conformation of a 25 report that was issued to us when we were sitting as Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 145 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 government operations Committee members in 1993, 3 '96, about the funding of term limits. The fellow 4 who was sitting in your chair at that time came from 5 Washington, he said, and my colleague, Mr. Michels, 6 asked him how did he get here, how paid his bill, 7 who paid his train, his hotel, his food, and he said 8 Term Limits, Inc. So, Mr. Michels asked him where 9 does the money come from. I mean, where does this 10 money come from? Actually, because this is going on 11 in other cities in the United States, it is not just 12 focused in New York. 13 MS. KEMM: Correct, yes. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: And Los 15 Angeles has it, San Francisco has it, Houston has 16 it. He said we are a membership organization and 17 member ship pays the money. 18 So, Stanley said, well, if it's a 19 membership organization, may we have a copy of the 20 membership list? And he said certainly. He said I 21 will be very happy to give you a copy of our 22 membership, that part of it which contributes up to 23 $1,000. But those people who give more than $1,000 24 to Term Limits, Inc., I cannot give that to you, 25 that is a private list. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 146 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Now, I will tell you that when I 3 heard that, a red flag went up in my mind because I 4 don't like secret organizations whose members 5 contribute more than $1,000, which sounds like a lot 6 of money to me, to pay for the activities that 7 result in a $5 million, a $4 million, whatever 8 amount over a million it is, that spends to upset 9 government in various cities across the United 10 States. 11 Now, I am older than you are so I 12 have a different viewpoint, and I come from a time 13 when there was a World War II, and when my brother 14 went into the Air Corps and wound up dead because of 15 his service to this country. And I remember having 16 lost people in our family who went off to fight 17 fascism in Hitler's and in the Salini's fascist 18 states. Now, I don't want to be overly dramatic, but 19 I know the power of big money to affect government, 20 it's not a secret. You don't have to be a smart 21 person to know that our government even has been 22 involved in overthrowing Chili's government and have 23 affected other governments throughout the country. 24 Why is it so inconceivable then to 25 imagine that people who are giving more than $1,000 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 147 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 a membership fee per year, to change government 3 structures in major cities across the United States 4 don't have a private agenda that might lead to 5 another form of the overthrow of the democratic 6 process? And I wonder, have you ever thought about 7 the origins, the genesis of the organization and 8 what its true meaning may be and what its true aim 9 is? 10 MS. KEMM: I actually know the person 11 you are referring to and he was not part of New 12 Yorkers for Term Limits, it was another term limits 13 group, so it is very difficult for me to speak for 14 that group. 15 But I can agree with you actually on 16 one point and that would be the power of big 17 government, as you put it. Certain individuals who 18 would donate over $1,000 may be targeted by those in 19 power of government for trying to perhaps put a term 20 limit in. So, in that way there are every, very 21 organization from the Red Cross to the United Way 22 has a subsection of the 501C section of the law and 23 part of those groups, you don't get a tax write off 24 for the donation, but you are allowed to keep your 25 secrecy. You are allowed to not have your name Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 148 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 disclosed because it might cause you problems in 3 your every day life. You might be targeted by those 4 in power, and that is the theory behind the group 5 that Mr. Jacobs was speaking to you about. 6 So, it's very common. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: Well, it may 8 be common for the Red Cross and for other 9 philanthropic organizations, but I would hardly 10 characterize any subdivision or subjunct of the term 11 limits concept as being altruism, being employed or 12 being just a noble gesture, when you seek to 13 underscore, underwrite, undermine the will of the 14 voters who would normally say, yes, you can go back 15 to work, no, you cannot, you didn't do a job. I 16 think that there is something much more ominous, to 17 me, I see something much worse in the cards with 18 term limits upsetting, undermining a stable 19 government business. 20 And don't forget that New York City 21 is government and government is big business, and 22 big business has been undermining these living 23 conditions of the people in the United States for 24 many years. We have been sending our workforce out 25 into the unemployed lines because the jobs have been Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 149 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 going to cheap labor countries. It has only been 3 accruing to the benefit of a subsection of our 4 constituency, and they are just as willing and 5 capable of taking over cities an governments and 6 ultimately the United States government if we allow 7 them to undermine and to get away with it. 8 I think that we are a very naive 9 people in the United States and in New York City and 10 we believe in very simplistic answers, and I don't 11 think we really think politically, and I think this 12 is a very political move that we are witnessing, and 13 I thank you for listening. 14 Thank you, Madam Chair. 15 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. 16 Helen Marshall. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Good 18 afternoon, Ms. Kemm. 19 I am among the 20 who are not running 20 again, I am running for another office. You made a 21 remark that right now that minorities are not in 22 control here in the Council, et cetera. Well, let me 23 talk to you a little bit about the complications 24 that maybe everybody doesn't understand, and the 25 only reason they don't understand it is because they Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 150 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 are not in it. 3 We now have -- when myself and 15 4 members came in, when we changed Charter revision 5 and expanded the Council, we now have nine 6 Hispanics, 14 blacks, total number 23. Prior to us 7 coming there were nine all total. It takes 26 votes 8 to pass a bill in this house. We can always get 9 three of our other colleagues to vote with us, okay? 10 We are definitely in a position of power, which is 11 one of the concerns that we have, we want to see 12 that maintained. 13 Public opinion sometimes can be 14 misguided. The public voted to do away with a 15 Civilian Complaint Review Board. The elected 16 officials of the Council overturned that decision. 17 There are many times, not many times, 18 and by the way, public opinion is crucial to us, we 19 are very concerned about public opinion, I mean, we 20 try to always adhere to public opinion. It is a 21 painful process for us to have to go to this extent, 22 very painful. We are not ignoring our public. I 23 mean, I know the papers are saying that and who do 24 we think we are and nobody could replace us, I am 25 hoping that the person who replaces me is ten times Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 151 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 smarter than me, and they are going to have to be 3 smarter than me because they are going to have a job 4 on their hands. They are going to be starting from 5 scratch. 6 Ron Lauder has special significance 7 to me. His mother, Estee' Lauder, began in my 8 community, in my district. She used to make her 9 cosmetics and go around from door-to-door and she 10 made it big. She built that business with her hands. 11 Ron Lauder ran on the republican line, he ran in the 12 primary against Mayor Giuliani and Mayor Giuliani 13 beat him, and clearly, this is part of Ronnie's 14 revenge. None of us doubt that, all right? 15 Now, my question for you is, your 16 organization New Yorkers for Term Limits, most of us 17 come to this body with years of community activism, 18 all right? I have never heard of you before. 19 The only time I recall hearing about 20 a group such as yours is on the Contract on America. 21 Now, that is a very conservative organization, and 22 we know from what we read about them, they wanted to 23 lossen the democratic stronghold on the United 24 States of America, the democratic party, and right 25 now -- many of those who went in said that they were Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 152 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 interested in term limits, they wanted term limits. 3 But, of course, many of those who went in under that 4 kind of banner - no, no, now term limits is not a 5 good thing. All right? 6 Now, I would like to know a little 7 bit more about the New Yorkers for Term Limits. 8 Could you just tell us a little bit about your 9 involvement? 10 MS. KEMM: Sure. New Yorkers for Term 11 Limits is a grassroots organization. We have 12 hundreds and hundreds of members and over a million 13 people that voted for the legislation that we did -- 14 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: No, not who 15 voted for the legislation. How many members do you 16 have? 17 MS. KEMM: Hundreds and hundreds of 18 members. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: That's not 20 an answer. 21 MS. KEMM: I can't give you an exact 22 number. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: You are 24 talking only about New Yorkers, right? 25 MS. KEMM: New Yorkers, right. We are Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 153 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 only New York. We are not federal, we are only New 3 York. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Right. 5 I grant you that, that's correct. But 6 you have no idea of the amount of members that you 7 have in New York City? 8 MS. KEMM: Hundreds. Three, 400, I 9 don't have a number exactly. I don't see the point. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Well, you 11 see, when you come before a legislative body such as 12 this, it's an official record of the City of New 13 York. We expect you to have the statistics, exact 14 information. A person to come and talk about 15 platitude and not really give us facts, and not only 16 that but to throw out statements, it's incorrect. 17 That's incorrect behavior before a legislative body. 18 From what we gather, you had 111 19 donations in your campaigns. I would not say that is 20 thousands and thousands of people. 21 MS. KEMM: Do you have to donate to be 22 a member? 23 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Well, you 24 are not giving me anything to go on. What can I go 25 on except what I have and that's the official record Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 154 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 of your donations. 3 MS. KEMM: I am telling you there are 4 hundreds of members. And not every member is a 5 member because they donate. There is no criteria for 6 membership, other than they like term limits and you 7 want them. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: I have sat 9 here now for ten years, when we ask people a 10 question about their organization, they are 11 knowledgeable of it. 12 MS. KEMM: I am knowledgeable. I am 13 telling you an answer. Just because they didn't 14 donate doesn't mean they are not a member, that's 15 the answer. 16 I would also mention one of your 17 first questions that you asked was that positions of 18 power only for minorities and women only get better 19 with term limits, more and more numbers. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, fine. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: No, I am not 22 finished. 23 First of all, yes, we are hoping that 24 we will be replaced by the same people, by people 25 who look like us and talk like us and who are like Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 155 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 us, all right? Because that is part of our City. 3 That is the reason that we are hoping that it 4 happens. 5 With the advent of Mr. Emery's court 6 case, we expanded this Council, now every borough is 7 represented on equal terms, and no offense to my 8 colleague from Manhattan, this was a very 9 Manhattan-based organization. We have made great 10 strides. We no longer are called the outer boroughs, 11 we are all one here and we are all on equal footing, 12 all right? 13 Now, one of the things that is very 14 important in legislation, with legislatures, is we 15 are elected -- 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 17 -- 18 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: I will be 19 finished in one second. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: No, time is up 21 because we have got to get to another witness, and 22 she is not going to remember anything. The longer 23 you talk -- 24 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Oh, I grant 25 that. Madam Chairman, I yield. Thank you. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 156 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Guaranteed she 3 will remember nothing. 4 Thank you, Council Member. 5 Thank you so very much. 6 MS. KEMM: Thank you for asking me to 7 testify. 8 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 9 Marshall Bloomfield. 10 MR. BLOOMFIELD: Good afternoon, Madam 11 Chairperson. I appreciate the opportunity to be 12 here. My name is Marshall Bloomfield. I am not with 13 any organization. I am an attorney. I have been a 14 New Yorker for many years, and I, from time to time, 15 attempted to accomplish things in this City. One 16 lesson I learned was nothing could ever be 17 accomplished without the experience necessary to do 18 it. 19 At times, for example, just prior to 20 the City having the tremendous financial problems it 21 did with Mayor Beame, when I had to give up years of 22 work doing low-income co-op conversions, some of 23 which went through, vast majority did not. And it 24 was an experience that I had to bring, to hire to 25 obtain, because that is the way things get done in Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 157 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 this City. 3 But the amazing thing as I sat here 4 all morning is that I don't feel, as I sit here, 5 that I am preaching to the choir. And you would 6 think normally you would feel that way because there 7 are those that say, hey, if you repeal term limits, 8 then you will extend the term of the people, and 9 these people right here are the ones who, according 10 to the press, are being very selfish, considering 11 extending their own terms. 12 I know that repeal is appropriate. I 13 am going to quickly tell you a story, and I will 14 show you why I have this conflict by doing that. It 15 is a joke as applies, as an attorney I use it often, 16 and I talk about the attorney who has this plumber 17 in his home and he looks at the bill and he says, my 18 God, I am an attorney, I don't charge that much, and 19 the plumber says to the attorney, when I was an 20 attorney I didn't either. And the moral of that 21 story, as I see it, is there are reasons why people 22 do things other than money. For sure there is no one 23 here that wouldn't and couldn't and will when they 24 leave here do better than the $90,000 a year. There 25 is no one here who will be working less hours. I Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 158 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 mean, even today's Times talks of someone who starts 3 off at ridiculous hours of the morning, goes to 4 funerals and does this and then by 11:00 they go on 5 to something else, 11:00 in the morning. This is 6 clearly a cheap shot for the press to talk about you 7 are doing it for your own selfish purposes. 8 Absolutely it couldn't be further from the truth. 9 Basic civics has been discussed here 10 several times as I sat here this morning. We spoke 11 about the representative form of government, which 12 means as an elected official when you take that 13 oath, you have got to do what is in your 14 constituents' best interest. We don't have a vote by 15 polls. We don't have computers hooked up to your 16 chairs here as to how your constituents think at 17 that moment on any given issue, you are 18 representatives, that's your job, and checks and 19 balances must, must be continued in the City to 20 whatever extent we have any check on the executive 21 branch, with its tremendous resources, officers, 22 number of people, et cetera, to whatever extent 23 there is now and ever will be any check that comes 24 from the legislative branch, and, of course, the 25 judicial. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 159 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 I think my three minutes is up, and, 3 sorry, I wish I had an organization that had a 4 platform. That's me, I am 62. I have had 30 some odd 5 years experience with the government and that is why 6 I wanted to share it with you. 7 Thank you. 8 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you so 9 much for sharing that with us. We appreciate your 10 presence. 11 Thank you. 12 Arthur J. Fried. 13 PROFESSOR FRIED: Good afternoon. My 14 name is Arthur Fried. I am the Executive Director 15 for the Center for Excellence in New York City 16 Governance at the Robert Wagner Graduate School for 17 Public Service at NYU. 18 Madam Chairwoman, members of the 19 Committee and Council, thank you very much for 20 giving me the opportunity to testify today on this 21 important bill concerning New York City's 22 governance. 23 There is much fear and loathing of 24 the New York City term limits rules, as have been 25 discussed this morning. Nonetheless, however you Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 160 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 feel about term limits, you must respect their place 3 in the American political landscape. 4 Term limits are neither recent nor a 5 fad. As early as 1787 Delaware State Constitution 6 imposed gubernatorial term limits. Indiana imposed 7 term limits for county offices in 1851, probably the 8 first local term limits law. 9 Term limits have another noteworthy 10 anniversary this year. Fifty years ago, on February 11 27th, 1951, Americans ratified the 22nd Amendment to 12 the Constitution, limiting presidents to two terms. 13 This was done in response to the longevity of a much 14 beloved president. 15 Since then term limits have proved to 16 be very popular with voters. 17 Twenty states now limit the terms of 18 their State Legislators, 38 limit gubernatorial 19 terms. Some limits are for consecutive terms, some 20 are for lifetime. 21 Clearly, after two centuries of 22 democracy, many Americans have come to believe that 23 incumbency is one of democracy's perils. Indeed, 24 term limits are already in effect in nearly 3,000 25 American cities. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 161 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Likewise, New Yorkers amended our 3 City Charter by public referendum in 1993 and 4 reaffirmed their support three years later. Many 5 have bemoaned the fact that term limits will destroy 6 the City Council, while others have celebrated that 7 prospect. 8 Regardless of how you feel about term 9 limits, on an issue concerning the very nature of 10 their government, their electorate should have the 11 last word. It would be profoundly undemocratic for 12 this body to overrule them. 13 Those of us opposed to term limits 14 must recognize that an enhanced public dialogue, 15 leading to a revised public understanding of term 16 limits, is the appropriate remedy here. 17 Rather than attempting to overrule 18 voters, we should look forward and capitalize on the 19 opportunity that this election year provides to 20 reconstruct the City Council. 21 Not that this City Council has not 22 made great progress since Charter reform, as has 23 been mentioned before, the track record of great 24 accomplishment, to which Council Member Michels and 25 others have referred is real and powerful. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 162 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 However, because of term limits and 3 the increased rate of public matching funds, 4 hundreds of candidates may run, paling from many 5 cultures and backgrounds, many already successful in 6 their communities. Even with term limits, 16 7 experienced Council members -- may I just take a 8 moment to finish? 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Yes. 10 PROFESSOR FRIED: Thank you very much. 11 -- At least some seasoned staff 12 members will be onboard to help newcomers acquire 13 necessary institutional knowledge. 14 Let's help them shape a Council 15 leadership based on vibrant alliances, let's help 16 this new body position itself to performance 17 oversight responsibilities vigorously. 18 We believe that repeal of term limits 19 will cause more damage than failure to do so. 20 Our New York City Council will avoid 21 destruction if it develops a strong vision of itself 22 as a governing body, and a well conceived path to 23 get there. 24 We should all join forces to see that 25 it accomplishes this mission. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 163 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Thank you, again. 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 4 Council Member Fiala. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Thank you. 6 Welcome, Doctor. A very quick question. 7 I'm swinging back and forth here, as 8 you know, depending on what testimony is provided 9 and where the witness stands. I go back to the 10 question I have asked several witnesses prior to the 11 last view. 12 Are you aware of any data which 13 supports the notion that New Yorkers favor the 14 repeal of term limits? 15 PROFESSOR FRIED: Outside of the polls 16 which are not dramatically significant in my mind, 17 and the two referendums, which I believe are 18 significant in this arena, I don't know of any other 19 information. 20 But I will reaffirm the statement of 21 others who have spoken here today that this 22 democracy works on elections, imperfect as they may 23 be, with the disproportionate impact occasionally of 24 money in campaigns, and also with the unfortunately 25 low voter turnout, and even lower voter Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 164 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 participation you occasionally get on referendums. 3 Imperfect as it may be, we rely on that process. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Thank you. 5 Thank you, Madam Chair. 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 7 Michels. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Thank you, 9 Madam Chair. 10 You are a professor? 11 PROFESSOR FRIED: I am in faculty at 12 Wagner Graduate School of Public Service. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: I want to 14 give you your proper title, Professor. 15 PROFESSOR FRIED: Thank you. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: I appreciate 17 your being here. I appreciate your efforts in this 18 regard. 19 Do you, yourself, believe in term 20 limits for legislative bodies? 21 PROFESSOR FRIED: I oppose term limits 22 for legislative bodies. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: You do. 24 PROFESSOR FRIED: Yes. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: So, you must Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 165 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 recognize the distinction between term limits and 3 Executive of the government, as opposed to a 4 legislative body? 5 PROFESSOR FRIED: I think there is a 6 significant difference between term limits for 7 Executive leaders and legislative bodies, yes. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Why do you 9 oppose term limits for legislative bodies. 10 PROFESSOR FRIED: I believe that the 11 voters should educate themselves and should make the 12 determination on a case-by-case basis as to whether 13 they want a representative or someone who is running 14 for election to either return to that position or to 15 be elected anew to that positions, as has been said, 16 without the term limits that we are currently 17 considering today, the term limits are, can and 18 should be imposed by the voters. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Right. So, 20 you are opposed to term limits. 21 PROFESSOR FRIED: Yes, I am. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: As a 23 professor, of course, you are very well aware of the 24 statement I made when I opened up my remarks. 25 PROFESSOR FRIED: Yes. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 166 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: A most famous 3 statement made by Edmund Burke, are you in adherence 4 of that particular statement? Do you believe in that 5 statement? I will repeat it: "A representative owes 6 you not his industry only, but his judgment. And he 7 betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices to 8 your opinion". 9 PROFESSOR FRIED: Absolutely, I agree 10 with that. 11 The difference in this issue here is, 12 the voters have spoken on an issue that goes 13 directly to the nature of the government that they 14 would like to have, and that although that doesn't 15 protect the area in any regard totally, your body 16 acting, I believe you have the legal right to act 17 here, at least -- I have not researched that here 18 myself, but I understand that there is significant 19 opinion that you have the legal right to act here. 20 However, in an issue that goes to the 21 very nature and essence of government, the ultimate 22 authority and power comes from the people, and that 23 they have, the voters have spoken in two referendums 24 in New York City and that it should be only in the 25 most extreme and extraordinary of circumstances, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 167 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 which I don't believe exists here, that they ought 3 to be overruled. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: On this 5 particular case. But you do believe -- 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 7 Michels, we know what he believes, we know what you 8 believe, we would like to move on. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Just a last 10 question. 11 But you do believe -- 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 13 Michels, we are going to move on. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Okay. 15 Judgment, we have -- 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me, 17 Council Member Michels, we are going to move on. 18 Thank you so very much. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Okay. Thank 20 you very much. Thank you for being here, Professor. 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. 22 PROFESSOR FRIED: Thank you very much 23 for inviting me. 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Gilda Chirafisi. 25 MS. CHIRAFISI: My name is Gilda Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 168 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Chirafisi. I am a private citizen and a voter, and I 3 have just a little statement to read. 4 I believe that it is unfortunate to 5 have all the experienced Council Members leave 6 office at the same time, which will occur under the 7 current term limits arrangement. 8 When voters go to the polls in 9 November, they will be prohibited in many districts 10 from voting for experienced, competent people. In 11 truth, a vacuum will be created in which lobbyists 12 and unelected staff members will gain a good deal of 13 power over the workings of our government. 14 I also believe that voters already 15 have the ability to limit the term of a Council 16 member, simply by voting for someone else if they 17 are not happy with the person holding office. 18 We should not devalue experience. 19 Voters should have the right to vote for this person 20 of their choice without artificial limits being 21 imposed. 22 Thank you very much. 23 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you very 24 much for your testimony. 25 Michael Meyers. Is Michael Meyers Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 169 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 present? No. 3 Jasper Niblock. Please identify 4 yourself by name, title and organization. 5 MR. SIEGEL: Norman Siegel, 6 trouble-maker. 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I did not want 8 to say that. I thought you would do that. 9 MR. SIEGEL: And Madam Chair, it might 10 be the one and only thing we will agree on today. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Not necessarily 12 so. 13 MR. SIEGEL: Okay. Well, that's 14 encouraging. 15 I come before you today after many, 16 many years as Executive Director of the New York 17 Civil Liberties Union, but I resigned last week, 18 and, so, I am not speaking for the Civil Liberties 19 Union, I come as an attorney, as a candidate for 20 Citywide office, who would not be affected by the 21 legislation you are considering. 22 Nevertheless, I feel an urgency about 23 expressing my views on this matter, and I appreciate 24 your letting me do so. 25 Late last year, when democracy was Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 170 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 undermined in the State of Florida, we, New Yorkers, 3 had reason to congratulate ourself and our City. 4 Such a perversion of the electoral process we 5 believed could never happen here. We were wrong. 6 Nearly half of you are seeking to 7 overturn by yourselves what the people twice 8 expressed by the vote, their desire for term limits 9 for those holding Citywide office. 10 The pending legislation, as you know, 11 would not only contravene the will of those who 12 voted, permitted term limited Council incumbents to 13 run for re-election, it would change the rules 14 immediately, in midstream, violating a fundamental 15 tenet of fairness. 16 And on that point, even if you felt 17 as strongly as some of you apparently feel about the 18 issue of term limits, I think you should do it 19 perspectively. 20 There are many people, some who are 21 sitting in this room, and others who are not in this 22 room, who have made life-setting decisions, based on 23 the rules that were set forth and that people relied 24 on. So, even assuming for the moment that you think 25 that the term limits is wrong, do it perspectively. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 171 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 One of the concepts of due process of 3 law, is that government should not make the rules up 4 as you go along. People have relied on your 5 representations, and even the argument that '93 and 6 '96 was wrong, "the people did not know", and I 7 will get back to that in a second, that was '96 at 8 the latest. You waited until 2001 to begin this 9 dialogue. People did not know that. People in good 10 faith relied on the representation that there was 11 going to be term limits, and they made decisions 12 affecting their lives, and now, at the 11th hour, 13 all of a sudden this issue begins. 14 I would strongly recommend, even the 15 people who think the term limits is wrong, to do it 16 perspectively, do it for the future, but not for the 17 Year 2001. 18 I intend to fight what I consider to 19 be an anti-democratic effort before it gathers 20 further momentum in the court of public opinion, 21 urging fellow New Yorkers to give voice to their 22 outrage. I plead with all Council Members to reflect 23 long and hard before voting on this ill-advised 24 initiative. How you vote will have a lasting effect 25 on our future. We must all resolve to keep democracy Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 172 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 alive and strong in this great City. 3 On a personal note, when I was here a 4 few weeks ago at a press conference, one of the City 5 Council Members who have had a very good working 6 relationship and enormous respect I think both ways 7 for the last 20 years, came over to me and did his 8 finger in my face. Was yelling at me. Was yelling at 9 me because, as best I can remember, he was saying 10 you are doing the wrong thing, you shouldn't have 11 left the Civil Liberties Union, you shouldn't be 12 entering politics. You should be doing the civil 13 liberitarian thing. You should be against term 14 limits. 15 I said, chill down, relax, let's talk 16 about it. The conversation again was very heated, 17 and it surprised me because in all the years that I 18 knew this person from the City Council, we never had 19 a conversation like that, and with due respect, 20 sitting here and listening to the hearing today, I 21 have been here many, many years, I have worked with 22 many of you, I have enormous respect for all of you, 23 your jobs are not easy. But I was very disappointed 24 in the tone of this hearing today. 25 To begin with, people who come here Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 173 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 to testify, there is not a prerequisite that they be 3 "proper". What democracy is about is people coming 4 here and venting, setting forth their grievances. We 5 need safety valves. I want people to come in a 6 democratic society, to hearings, and to get it all 7 out, because if they can't come here, where are they 8 going to go? 9 And I would urge the Council, with 10 due respect, that exercise the kind of leadership 11 and respect, even when someone is pushing the edge, 12 because otherwise the whole process is undermined. 13 And one of the persons who is left here, who before 14 was lecturing, really lecturing one of the people 15 who testified, please remember, I am sure you know 16 this, that you hold enormous power, you're the 17 government. And when the government is lecturing to 18 the citizens who are coming here, it's intimidating 19 and it even can be traumatic, and I know you all 20 know that, and I know this issue is very heated, and 21 with due cause, and I don't want to be lecturing 22 anymore, so I am going to bring it to a conclusion. 23 I think we just have to try to 24 elevate the debate. We can agree to disagree and try 25 to respect each other with regard to the opinion Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 174 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that everyone is setting forth. 3 If we don't do that, we are losing 4 something very precious. 5 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 6 Let me just respond to what you have 7 said. You just exercised your right to differ with 8 this Council in an even and fair tone. You did not 9 scream, you did not interrupt, you did not indicate 10 any disregard or any disrespect for anyone. You did 11 not during the course, and she had ignored anything 12 that was said prior to the meeting. I saw you when I 13 came in here, I saw you when you walked out earlier, 14 I saw you from the very beginning even before the 15 meeting started, so I know that you were here very 16 early, but when we said that there will be no 17 applause, there will be nothing... (clapping), and I 18 said don't do that. Continued. And just "oh, I 19 didn't mean it, didn't mean it". Sometimes we can be 20 patronizing and we let people think that it's okay 21 to be rude. It's okay to disregard others. 22 My response, and when I spoke to 23 everyone, was that there will be questions asked, 24 and when you are testifying, you are not going to 25 want people to be rude to you. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 175 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 The third thing about this is, she 3 wasn't spoken down to, and it wasn't because of the 4 fact that we wanted to be more important than she 5 was, it was because we wanted to conduct a hearing 6 so that we could proceed in a proper manner that 7 everyone could be heard, everyone could speak, and 8 that we didn't have the kind of venting that went on 9 after she stood up, somebody else stood up, somebody 10 else would add to the configuration. We did not need 11 that. That was not the purpose of this hearing. It 12 was to elicit information, to give information and 13 to be helpful, and that is what we are supposed to 14 do, that is what we tried to do. 15 I was told, and I don't object, well, 16 you are our servants. I don't object to that, but it 17 was meant that she thought it was a put down. That 18 didn't bother me. But it was the fact that she 19 totally felt that when she came here she did not 20 have to respect this body. 21 Now, I have said to the press when 22 they say, well, Council, they are doing it to save 23 their jobs. I have asked them the question, which I 24 would ask you, which reporter when they hear that 25 their particular entity, whether it is the news Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 176 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 media or the print media or television, if they say 3 that their principle source of income is having 4 fiscal difficulty and they are going to have to make 5 cuts, steps forward and says, I am giving up my job 6 in order to save the institution. Most people don't 7 do that. Most people say, well, look, I have rights, 8 too, and I want to be heard. What we are doing 9 simply here is not violating anybody's rights, but 10 it was the belief of this Council and this chair 11 that Council Members, too, have a right, a 12 constitutional right, to express their feelings, and 13 if they introduce legislation, to be heard. To be 14 heard. To be heard. They have as much right to be 15 heard as the public has to be heard, and there is 16 nothing wrong with that. 17 It doesn't mean that everybody is 18 going to vote for it, but it does mean that they 19 have a right to be heard, that there is also a right 20 to honesty and truth. I know how they came in, I 21 know who she came with, it doesn't bother me. She 22 can come with whomever she wants to. 23 I watched all of the -- yes, this is 24 what we are going to do, I saw all of that, the 25 maneuvering. That is not important. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 177 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 So, I would suggest to you, I never 3 told you when people came to your meetings, you 4 can't associate with this group of people, you stay 5 away from them, you don't have to obey their 6 regulations. 7 The most important thing is that you 8 respect the audience that you are there with. They 9 have rules, you have rules, you observe them only 10 because it is necessary to do so. 11 And I don't think you have a right to 12 say to the Council, you must indeed be sacrificial 13 lambs because we think it is your right and 14 responsibility to do so. 15 I think the question to me and to 16 others is, I am deeply troubled by the fact, and I 17 have said it before, I am deeply troubled about the 18 fact indeed there has been two referendums. But I 19 also, as a black American, conscious of the fact 20 that I have been asked to obey and observe laws, 21 that were passed by the majority that did not take 22 into consideration the impact and the effect of that 23 legislation on me and mine. That even though the 24 majority passed legislation that did not look at my 25 community, did not look at the vote in my community, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 178 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 but said here is this, that there has a meaning. 3 I am concerned about the Voting 4 Rights Act, which this alters totally. It ignores 5 totally the Voting Rights Act. It ignores also the 6 fact that you step in and what you do is you 7 truncate the right of people to move up and to have 8 a voice in government. We are saying to the people 9 who have the least in government, you can have six 10 years and out. 11 And, so, I think you have to be very, 12 very careful -- 13 MR. SIEGEL: Well, with the Voting 14 Rights Act -- 15 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Oh, I am aware 16 of that -- 17 MR. SIEGEL: And I have had a lot of 18 experience -- 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And I am also 20 aware of the fact that we have a responsibility, but 21 then I have got to weight which is the greater 22 responsibility. 23 MR. SIEGEL: Right. But if you pass 24 this legislation, this is going to the Voting Rights 25 Division of the Justice Department -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 179 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: It could go 3 without that. If we don't pass it, it could go 4 there, if somebody wanted to do that -- 5 MR. SIEGEL: If it ends here, the law 6 says -- 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I didn't say 8 that it would. I am simply saying to you there are 9 many avenues it could be taken. So that when you 10 have a hearing, you are attempting to be fair. 11 Give us credit for at least 12 attempting to do the right thing. Do not just come 13 in and lecture us. Understand that we are a 14 legislative body. We understand legislation, we are 15 concerned about the obligation to do the right 16 thing. 17 MR. SIEGEL: Right, but, Madam Chair 18 -- 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 20 MR. SIEGEL: -- When I hear you 21 talking about when people come here to your house -- 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I didn't say 23 that. 24 MR. SIEGEL: Well, I heard you mention 25 it -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 180 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, let's say 3 they came to our house -- 4 MR. SIEGEL: Right. 5 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: This is our 6 house. 7 MR. SIEGEL: But, no, this is a seat 8 of government. There is a huge difference -- 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Well, in the 10 sense that it was a seat of government, certainly. 11 MR. SIEGEL: But there is a concept -- 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: But when people 13 come in here -- well, wait a minute. Let's talk 14 concept in this sense. 15 If I go to the Civil Liberties Union 16 office, I don't set policy for your office. 17 MR. SIEGEL: It's a private 18 organization. It is not the seat of government. 19 Constitutionally there is a different policy. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I don't set 21 policy. Excuse me. I don't set policy. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Madam Chair, we 23 have a lot of other people -- 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I don't set 25 policy, and I am going to finish it with this Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 181 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 statement. I don't set policy for your office, and 3 unfortunately, or fortunately, I can't permit you to 4 set policy here. I can say that we attempt to treat 5 everyone fairly, and when she was disrupting the 6 meeting, she was disrupting everyone in this room. 7 MR. SIEGEL: Well, with due respect -- 8 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I want to thank 9 you for your testimony, and if you have any further 10 discussion with me, you will do it after this 11 hearing. 12 Thank you, and good luck in your 13 candidacy for Public Advocate. 14 Watkins. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Norman, I 16 should have said Mr. Siegel, but we go back. 17 MR. SIEGEL: It's okay. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: It slipped 19 out. Sorry. 20 I think I understand your position. 21 Let me ask you a not so hypothetical question. 22 Should the term limits indeed be 23 repealed, the term limits law indeed be repealed at 24 this time? When you spoke of people who have made 25 life-changing, I think was the term you used, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 182 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 decision, and I am jumping ahead thinking that 3 perhaps you are talking about people who have made 4 decisions to run for office, based on the term 5 limits of the law. 6 In some of those cases, it is not 7 going to make any difference, because as you have 8 heard, many of the Council members have decided not 9 to run again no matter what. 10 In the case where some Council 11 Members may decide as incumbents to run again, those 12 people who have made decisions that they were going 13 to enter a race thinking there would be no 14 incumbent, then have a further choice to make, to 15 run anyway with an incumbent in the race, but in 16 this case, what could be a well-financed race 17 because of the four to one match. 18 Now, would this be such a terrible 19 thing because if the people in that given district 20 have a choice and have a well-financed opponent, or 21 a couple of well-financed opponents to the 22 incumbent, does this not limit the term of the 23 incumbent if that district feels they are ready for 24 a change? 25 MR. SIEGEL: It's a good question, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 183 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Councilwoman. 3 Term limits is all about 4 anti-incumbency. Electoral politics in this country 5 and in this City demonstrate that incumbents have 6 enormous advantage. 7 The playing field is not level, even 8 with the four to one. Even with the four to one 9 match, the playing field in my opinion is still not 10 level. People talk about the four to one as the 11 magnificent panacea, I think it is only the good ole 12 Brooklyn statement "a baby step in the right 13 direction", we can go much further. 14 When the voters in '93 and '96 15 expressed their will, what they were saying is that 16 they wanted people to be limited to an eight-year 17 term, two terms of four years. 18 When I sit here and hear people 19 denigrate and try to infer, imply or even manipulate 20 that vote, it is undermining the democratic process. 21 The people spoke, and they spoke 22 clearly. Whether everyone spoke, that is not the 23 rules of the game. The rules of the game are who 24 shows up and who votes. And the people on two 25 occasions said no to term limits. What they said was Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 184 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that we don't want to continue the advantage to 3 incumbents. That's my interpretation. 4 So, given that, and where you have in 5 the legal term, it's non-clean hands, some people 6 call it dirty hands, I am trying to be respectful, 7 non-clean hands, you had -- 8 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: I am sorry -- 9 MR. SIEGEL: If you go into court and 10 you make an argument, and you are making an argument 11 about fairness, the court looks to see whether or 12 not the person who is making it has clean or dirty 13 hands. This Council had '97, '98, '99, 2000 to do 14 what you are now doing, but you didn't. You didn't 15 act in '97, '98, '99 and 2000. On the eve of the 16 change you then begin to speak up. That is dirty 17 hands, in my opinion. 18 And in the context of that, it raises 19 the issues that some people are raising about what 20 the motive is. I don't want to go there, because 21 whether it is or isn't, it doesn't deal with where 22 you should be, which is on the merit of the issue. 23 All I am saying is that the people, 24 to answer your question directly, the people who 25 made the decision in '99 and 2000, to enter into Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 185 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 City Council races, made it based on your 3 representation that there would be no incumbents. To 4 now have incumbents come back in changes it 5 radically, fundamentally and substantially, and it 6 puts every one of those people who worked on the 7 premise that there would be no incumbent at a 8 disadvantage. 9 If you want to rethink this, which 10 you have the right to do, do it perspectively. You 11 want to pass something? Make it applicable January 12 1, the Year 2000, then people will respect the 13 decision. People still might disagree, but then you 14 elevate not only the discussion, you elevate the 15 City Council as an institution, because the way it 16 is being handled now inevitably brings to the table 17 questions about the motives, and once we get their 18 it is not a pure conversation, and then the 19 disrespect goes both ways. Leaders see where that 20 will go and avoid. They don't go in their car 21 hitting the wall. They put on the brakes. You have 22 the opportunity to put on the brakes before we hit 23 the wall, and the wall, in my opinion, is uprising 24 throughout the City where people say the people have 25 spoken twice and now the City Council on its own is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 186 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 going to undo the popular will. 3 I keep hearing over and over again, 4 that is what I put in reference to my prepared 5 testimony, are we going to have a Florida again? And 6 what that is all about -- 7 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: I am only 8 cutting it because I know we want to move on in time 9 and you have answered my question, or I understood 10 you, and I just want to make two quick comments. 11 First of all, I appreciate your 12 views, as I always have. 13 MR. SIEGEL: I appreciate yours. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: When you get 15 to we didn't do it X, we didn't do it Y, we didn't 16 do it Z, that has never been a good and substantial 17 reason for not doing what you feel is the right 18 thing. 19 Had we not changed the law that 20 prohibited women from voting all of those years and 21 didn't get around to it when there were 22 opportunities -- 23 MR. SIEGEL: It's not the same. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Don't tell me 25 it is not analogous, I am speaking for me now. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 187 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 That would have not -- the fact that 3 it wasn't done before wasn't done precipitously, 4 some of our civil rights legislation would not make 5 it right to say, well, you can't do it now. 6 So, that part of your persuasive 7 testimony -- 8 MR. SIEGEL: Thank you. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: -- I have to 10 take issue with. 11 And the other thing that I have to 12 tell you is that you make some very good and 13 persuasive points about the City Council and public 14 opinion, and the media which you didn't include. 15 MR. SIEGEL: They are always there. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Right. And 17 they help to shape public opinion about what we do 18 or don't do. 19 As one of 51, I am sure that I can 20 speak not only for myself but for at least 45 of my 21 colleagues in saying that if we acted only based on 22 what the public will say or do, we would not move 23 ever, because according to a wag in the past, the 24 City Council is much like a rubber stamp with the 25 exception that the rubber stamp leaves an Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 188 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 impression. 3 So, if we thought of ourselves only 4 based on what the public perceives, and as you or 5 someone perceiving you said, in most cases they 6 don't have a clue about what it is that we really 7 do, and that time that we put in, that is not a good 8 enough reason to move from a position if you indeed 9 feel that the position is the right thing to do, 10 maybe at the wrong time, I don't know. But I just 11 wanted to make those responses. 12 MR. SIEGEL: Fifteen seconds. If you 13 had acted previously, my main argument, changing the 14 rules in midstream, I would not have been able to 15 make. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 17 Lopez. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Mr. Siegel? 19 MR. SIEGEL: Yes, Councilwoman. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: You and I know 21 each other for over 22 years. 22 MR. SIEGEL: Correct. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: And I have 24 respected your opinion -- 25 MR. SIEGEL: And likewise. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 189 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: -- Many, many 3 times. 4 MR. SIEGEL: And likewise. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: But today I am 6 sad to say to you that I am very, very troubled by 7 the statements that you have made here today. Not 8 because you and I disagree on the question of term 9 limits, but because they intend in you sitting there 10 and comparing this issue to the situation they are 11 having in Florida. Those two things are very, very 12 different, Mr. Siegel, and you know it. 13 Therefore, I am telling you right 14 now, this action that you have taken in trying to 15 compare these two things, are very troubling to me. 16 They are not connected, they don't have anything to 17 do with each other, and you know that very well. 18 MR. SIEGEL: I respectfully disagree 19 with you, Councilwoman Lopez. 20 I think that there is a connection. 21 The people's will in Florida was undermined, and 22 what this Council, or at least 22 people are trying 23 to do, in my opinion, is exactly the same. It is 24 antithetical to democratic principles. 25 You might have the legal authority to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 190 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 do what you are trying to do. I think it is an open 3 question. Eventually it will be decided by a court 4 of law, but I could see reasons on both sides. I 5 have read the Buffalo case, the Buffalo case is 6 limited to the Buffalo City Charter, I don't think 7 it is going to be applicable. The Court of Appeals 8 Decision is very, very limited. The last sentence of 9 the Court of Appeals decision says we are limiting 10 this decision which is a 1961, just to the facts in 11 the Buffalo case. 12 In the last 40 years we have had a 13 quiet non-violent revolution with regard to legal 14 rights under voting rights, and to rely on a case 40 15 years ago where the Court of Appeals explicitly said 16 it is limited, I think with due respect is not 17 strong precedent. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: It is your 19 opinion, sir. And this is what -- 20 MR. SIEGEL: That is what this hearing 21 is about. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Let me finish. 23 This is your legal opinion, and I am 24 going to respond to that in the following fashion. 25 If you are correct, I am saying right Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 191 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 now all of the news media of this nation has failed 3 to protect this country, because what had happened 4 in Florida, according to you, is a travesty of 5 justice the same way that is in here. 6 Therefore, I have not seen the media 7 outlets of this country. I have not seen the outrage 8 of this country demanding that the President of the 9 United States be removed right now. And I am saying 10 to you right now, that to you this issue is the same 11 as that one is, I am fascinated about the lack of 12 information, about the lack of condemnation, about 13 the lack of dealing with the facts of a president 14 being put in this country, in the way that was put 15 in Florida, and you equating that at this issue in 16 which we are in a process of law. In which we are in 17 a process of legislation. In which we have, under 18 the Charter of this City, the power and the mandate 19 to look into this. We are not violating the rights 20 of anybody, Mr. Siegel. We are fulfilling our 21 responsibility. 22 And I am telling you right now, you 23 are asking in your last statement and testimony that 24 we need to think this very, very carefully. I am 25 going to tell you how I think of this, about this Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 192 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 very, very carefully. I am a sponsor of this bill, I 3 am going to vote for this bill, and I am going to 4 continue campaigning in this bill. I campaigned on 5 this issue before I got elected to this office, I 6 campaigned against term limits before I ever thought 7 about running for office, because it is wrong, 8 because it is anti-democratic, and it is wrong to 9 have it. 10 MR. SIEGEL: You can be against term 11 limits and can also under democratic principles vote 12 against the repeal because it is in effect 13 retroactive and it undermines the democratic 14 principle that government should not change the 15 rules as it goes along. Make it perspective, don't 16 make it the way this bill is currently worded. 17 And I think that the people, when you 18 talk about politics, Councilwoman, people who vote 19 for this bill, and I am sure you do all know, that 20 there are New Yorkers who have long memory of people 21 who vote in what they consider to be 22 anti-democratic. 23 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 24 Linares. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER LINARES: Just a yes or Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 193 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 no answer response to my question for expediency. 3 Do you fundamentally, knowing the 4 history of work that you have had, agree or 5 disagree, do you agree with the concept of term 6 limits? 7 MR. SIEGEL: Yes. 8 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you so 9 very much. 10 Council Member Marshall. I didn't see 11 your name. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Norman, no, 13 don't go. 14 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: One more 15 question, I am sorry. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: First of all 17 -- 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Make it brief, 19 please. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: -- I think 21 you have been in this body and around this body long 22 enough to know how we tick. This is not a leadership 23 decision. This grew out of the Council members 24 themselves, this whole idea. We were concerned about 25 what was happening, we tried two times. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 194 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 The first time we really felt that 3 the public couldn't possibly fall for this. Even 4 though many of us did not even -- we worry about 5 anything that is going to affect the government, 6 and, so, a number of us even worked that time. 7 The second time we made a real 8 concerted effort. We came before the people, and 9 that was our initiative. The first one was not our 10 initiative, the first one was Ron Lauder's 11 initiative. 12 The second time we came back and we 13 said, at least stagger the term, so we don't empty 14 out the whole government, all right? 15 Now, you are saying why are we 16 changing midstream? If we don't change it now it is 17 too late. The damage will have already been done. 18 This body will be pulled apart, and the people who 19 come behind us are going to have a heck of a job 20 pulling it together. 21 The other thing, on the four to one 22 match. On the four to one match, the four to one 23 match doesn't happen just like this. There are at 24 least ten people running for every City Council 25 seat, okay? Everybody knows that only one person can Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 195 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 win, and you are not even going to get your match 3 until after you get on the ballot, all right? So, we 4 are taking a chance, period, in going after it. 5 The other thing is that you made a 6 sort of lecture to us about how we should treat the 7 people who come before us. You know there is a 8 difference between an expert witness and a witness 9 who is just a citizen coming before us. 10 The young lady who we questioned, at 11 least who I questioned, she came here as -- she is a 12 paid person for the New Yorkers for Term Limits. I 13 expected her to give us some numbers and actions and 14 figures. I wouldn't ask a person who is coming, who 15 is just a citizen reacting to something they feel is 16 right or wrong, and I think you know that. We even 17 talk differently to you because of your vast 18 knowledge and you, of course, you were on the 19 payroll and you were working for an organization 20 which I have a great deal of confidence in and 21 respect for. 22 So, I was surprised when you lectured 23 to us like that because you know the difference in 24 witnesses. 25 MR. SIEGEL: I -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 196 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you very 3 much. 4 MR. SIEGEL: No, she raised two 5 questions, and I would like to respond in a minute. 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I really would 7 appreciate that, because you have given us that 8 information, and we are going to move on, and the 9 next person will be Robert -- 10 MR. SIEGEL: You just made my case. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: -- Bookman, 12 Esquire. Enough is enough. 13 Robert Bookman. 14 Lois Slessinger. 15 MS. SLESSINGER: Hi. I am Lois 16 Slessinger. I am coming here as a private citizen, 17 but also I am active in many organizations in the 18 Lower East Side, and I am also a member of Local 19 School Board 1, so I am an elected official. 20 However, I am really speaking, as I 21 said, I am not speaking for any organization. 22 There are two things that really 23 trouble me about this whole business of term limits. 24 If I am correct, during the civil rights movement, 25 one of the most important points made by those many Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 197 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 activists, Martin Luther King, of course, Jr., how 3 important it was to oppose an unjust law, and I 4 think that is what we are struggling with here. 5 Because I keep hearing about the will of the people, 6 I don't know about you, but I have been very 7 disturbed about some of the decisions lately of the 8 Supreme Court. 9 We all know that they are stressing 10 state's rights right now. Now, if we think of some 11 of the laws that were in place by the states, of 12 course segregation as we know, we have states, our 13 President comes from a State where the legislature 14 meets once every two years. So, legislatures are not 15 the same in all 50 states. They have different 16 legislative bodies, and cities do, too. 17 I wasn't born in New York, I have 18 only been here since 1950, but I feel like a New 19 Yorker, I couldn't live anywhere else. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: You are a 21 New Yorker. 22 MS. SLESSINGER: Because this City is 23 unique. And having been here long enough to see the 24 changes in government, I wasn't always active, I 25 wasn't always knowledgeable, but once I became Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 198 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 knowledgeable, and I see this body here, nobody 3 wants to say anything, but I really do think this 4 does have something to do with race. I know it does. 5 No politician will say so, I know that. And we come 6 across this in every area, in education, in 7 resources - where are they going and why aren't they 8 going to certain places and others? 9 So, let's be very honest about this. 10 I know it is a very sensitive subject, but just to 11 let you know that some of us are very, very aware of 12 what is going on. 13 And when we deal with local issues or 14 activists issues in our own neighborhoods, 15 underlying it all, we have to deal with this. 16 The representation in this Council to 17 me is absolutely necessary to reflect the City of 18 New York. I was horrified when we lost a 19 non-commercial WNYC. I had written letters to that 20 station because they do not reflect the City of New 21 York. Think about it. 22 So, where is the voice for the people 23 of New York City? You are our voice. Imperfect - a 24 lot of you I have criticized, don't like, vote 25 against, but, please, you have the right to overturn Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 199 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 an unjust law. 3 Thank you. 4 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you very 5 much for your testimony. 6 Charles Juntikka. 7 MR. JUNTIKKA: My name is Charles 8 Juntikka. I am an attorney, and myself and our two 9 other attorneys, Craig Heller, and Dan Wolf, sponsor 10 a group of students on Campaign Finance. 11 Can you hear me okay? Sorry. Is that 12 okay? 13 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Yes. 14 MR. JUNTIKKA: Myself and two other 15 associate attorneys, we support a group of students 16 who work on campaign finance on electoral issues, we 17 actually impose incumbent politicians who oppose 18 reforms, primarily campaign finance and lobby 19 reform. And in 1996, we actually sponsored a 20 campaign finance referendum, referendum to require 21 debates for all elective offices in New York City. 22 We submitted over 70,000 signatures on one of the 23 propositions, and 68,000 on the other. So, of 24 necessity I learned about the referendum law, and I 25 can offer you my expertise on that. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 200 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Actually, Richard Emery actually gave 3 us some friendly advice on how to litigate the 4 action, which is inevitable. And I had to go to the 5 archives in the Surrogate Court and look up why we 6 have a referendum law. It was pursuant to the 7 Seabury Commission. The Seabury Commission was 8 appointed by Franklin Roosevelt when he was 9 Governor, and that was the era of corrupt Tamany 10 Hall and Jimmy Walker, and a lot of reforms were 11 considered, term limits was considered as a reform 12 back then. 13 A City manager was considered as 14 reform. Proportional representation was considered 15 as a reform. And they came to an agreement with the 16 support of LaGuardia, that we would have popular 17 referendums for reforming City government. And the 18 reason that they did that, and if you read the 19 hearings, like we are all hearing today, and it is 20 real musty too, it is hard to read this stuff, was 21 that the corruption of that era, of the political 22 parties, made it impossible for you and the City 23 Council to do what you needed to do. 24 There had to be a safety valve, where 25 the public could go around the City Council. And Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 201 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that is what they have done with term limits. And if 3 FDR or Judge Seabury were alive today, he would be 4 astounded that you are trying to overturn a popular 5 referendum, because that was the mechanism that 6 reformers could use to go around the City Council 7 when the City Council would not act. 8 And you know, the Marist College came 9 out with their poll this week, 58 percent of the 10 people favor term limits. And Ron Lauder hasn't run 11 an ad in years. 12 I know it is hard not to take this 13 personally, but you shouldn't. If there were a 14 referendum for term limits in Albany or in 15 Washington, it would pass by a big majority, and the 16 reason these referendums pass is because people are 17 cynical about government, and if you overturn the 18 will of the people, based on polls, based on two 19 referendums, people are going to become ever-more 20 cynical, and I really urge you not to do this. 21 Please don't do this. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I would like to 23 thank you for your testimony. I question only this, 24 I think you have a right to question public 25 officials. I think that is a sign of intelligence Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 202 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 citizenry. 3 MR. JUNTIKKA: Right. 4 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And no one here 5 would question the right of the citizen to question 6 any legislative body. 7 I don't know, because you said in 8 Washington it would not pass, maybe that is why they 9 don't have term limits there. 10 MR. JUNTIKKA: No, it would pass. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: But what they 12 don't have also is campaign finance, because they do 13 not pay anyone to run against them. 14 In Albany they don't have campaign 15 financing either. That is a reform that they don't 16 have. 17 MR. JUNTIKKA: Right. 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: In New York 19 City, as I said before, they have a reform-minded, 20 or if you wanted to say not reformers, but people 21 who perhaps weren't too bright, who put money into a 22 special and appropriate creative law, that must meet 23 the standards according to a legislation that can 24 be, of course, they must report it. There is an 25 audit. If you have gotten money that you haven't Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 203 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 used, you must return it. You cannot just take the 3 money and use it by reform minded Council, which is 4 this body of elected officials. 5 Now, we were not elected during the 6 time of Franklin Roosevelt, who was elected and 7 reelected four times, the interesting thing about 8 him was he did some magnificent things for the 9 American people at a time when they needed someone 10 to perform magnificent things. 11 LaGuardia was very interesting. He 12 liked to go to fires, he read the comic strip during 13 the strike of the newspapers, so the people wouldn't 14 lose contact with the comics, and he was a very 15 interesting and a good Mayor. But that time has 16 passed. 17 You have heard many of the things 18 that we have done by this Council, that doesn't mean 19 we are not guilty of being sometimes guilty of 20 certain things, but I don't think we can be accused 21 of just being a corrupt uncaring body. 22 MR. JUNTIKKA: May I just respond to 23 that very briefly? 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: No, I am talking 25 about this piece where you talk about the -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 204 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MR. JUNTIKKA: No, no. What you guys 3 did with campaign finance reform should be lauded 4 across the country. I don't mean to compare you to 5 the City Council of the '20s. 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I know. I am 7 also talking about the overall performance of the 8 Council, because I think that too many people did 9 not look at what has been done by this Council. The 10 money we put in for education when the state didn't 11 give us, and what we have done in terms of housing, 12 which we have done, what we have done in terms of 13 other things, health, mental health, all of these 14 things. 15 MR. JUNTIKKA: No, I am sure you have 16 done many good things, but if you look at the law, 17 Judge Seabury, LaGuardia, Roosevelt, all supported a 18 mechanism where the public could go around the City 19 Council. They would be astounded, they would be 20 astounded that the City Council would even 21 contemplate doing this without having another 22 referendum. 23 And actually, in the early years, I 24 will just finish this real quickly, that is what 25 City Councils did, they had another referendum, just Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 205 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 as you did, but it failed. 3 You should try to do another 4 referendum. It's the only proper way of doing this. 5 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Well, I won't 6 reject your suggestion. 7 I am only saying that what you should 8 do is bring your analogy up closer than Seabury and 9 Roosevelt and LaGuardia. 10 MR. JUNTIKKA: But the majority of the 11 public as of last Monday are in favor of this 12 reform, using the mechanism that it was designed 13 for. 14 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: But I am only 15 suggesting you come closer to what happened since 16 that time, okay? 17 MR. JUNTIKKA: Okay. 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And thank you 19 for your testimony. 20 MR. JUNTIKKA: Thank you. 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, now we are 22 going to have Marcia Lynn. 23 MS. LYNN: Good morning, Council 24 members. 25 I am here today to talk about the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 206 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 negative effect term limits will have on the City of 3 New York. 4 Most people say that they are for 5 term limits. Ask them why, they have no answer. They 6 don't really understand the impact, in my opinion, 7 of what term limits will do to the average working 8 person who lives and works in New York City. 9 The talking heads of New York City's 10 media continuously show a clip filled with people 11 holding signs for term limits. Unfortunately, these 12 are not the citizens of the City of New York, this 13 is a small group of campaign volunteers, hoping that 14 their guy is going to get a job. 15 Elections are the true indicators of 16 term limits. If you do a good job, you get 17 re-elected. If you don't do a good job, you don't 18 get re-elected. 19 In order for a legislator to work 20 properly, it needs experienced members. Council 21 members will clear out, except for a few who will 22 remain. What a tradeoff for these guys, lots of 23 power and little experience. No longer need to think 24 as a legislative body and decide what is best for 25 all of the people of New York City. Just give me Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 207 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 what I want for my neighborhood, and the hell with 3 everyone else. We don't have to worry on what is 4 going to happen in other people's communities, 5 because we are here short term, and we gotta get 6 what we gotta get. 7 The general public doesn't realize 8 that the effects of everyone leaving at once. Come 9 January 3rd, 2002, got a problem? Can't go to the 10 Mayor's office. They are throwing out the old and 11 bringing in the new. 12 Can't go to the Comptroller's Office, 13 they are throwing out the old and bringing in the 14 new. 15 Public Advocate? Same thing. Wait. 16 But what about my Borough President? Can't go there. 17 They are throwing out the old and bringing in the 18 new. 19 So, what is the little guy who just 20 had the City spend $100 million on a new election, 21 we got to worry about what is going on with all the 22 on-the-job training, because there is not going to 23 be a soul to tell them where the bathroom is in this 24 building. 25 As many of you know me, I never come Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 208 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 here with a popular view, but I really have seen 3 today many things that make me realize that this is 4 my fault. I should have been out there with all the 5 grassroots people who didn't vote for term limits, 6 and let me tell you, I am on the ball now. I am 7 going to get my neighborhood, I am going to get 8 Queens, because we won't have one person with 9 experience left in the entire Queens Delegation, and 10 I tell you, that come tonight I will be on that 11 phone telling people, get down here and we will also 12 get petitions. We don't need money because we got 13 people. And everybody here knows that when we throw 14 a party in Queens, we get our point across. 15 Just in closing, let me say that the 16 big problem with term limits is that, I would like 17 to just finish up for a minute or so, is that when 18 everybody changes in government, and I am a 32-year 19 veteran of government. I have been civil service, I 20 have been appointed, I have been fired, as everybody 21 knows, and I have come back. But the point is, when 22 the little guy doesn't have a place to go to get 23 this little problem, that is what the Council is all 24 about, it is the little guy whose mother can't seem 25 to get HPD to help them, that is what this will do. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 209 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 You are problem solvers, not only legislators, and I 3 think when people see that this is going to be every 4 eight years, throw out the old, bring in the new, 5 this is going to be a real rocky road. 6 So, I tell New Yorkers today, you are 7 heading for a bumpy ride out there, because there is 8 not going to be anybody around to tell you how to 9 fix your little problem. 10 I think when people realize that that 11 is what is happening with term limits -- if the 12 incumbent runs and you don't want them, don't vote 13 for them. You guys just put in, I am for that four 14 to one match. I think that is a great thing. But I 15 also think in many ways that it is going to give 16 everybody a chance to run, and the thing that I find 17 most offensive as a public citizen, I am here today, 18 as I have been accused today, I worked for Mayor 19 Giuliani, but you know what? I have worked for every 20 Mayor since John Lindsay, and that does not change 21 my opinion. People today need to understand that 22 this is bad government. Having term limits is bad 23 government. And I implore you that if you cannot 24 overturn this legislation, then you must, you must 25 change the rules of the game. You either have to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 210 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 lengthen the terms and stagger them, or figure out 3 some way in good government to reform the existing 4 term limit law. 5 Either have everybody put their 6 little name in a hat and pull out the first and 7 figure out who is going to say and who is going to 8 go, but you gotta do something, because when there 9 is nobody here, little guys like me are going to 10 have a big problem. 11 Thank you very much. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Norbert, is that 13 Chwat? Yes. 14 Is anyone going to be with you? 15 MR. CHWAT: Yes, Ma'am. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. Each one 17 of you will identify yourselves by name and title 18 and the organization of which you are a member of, 19 and your title within the organization. 20 MR. CHWAT: Madam Chairwoman, my name 21 is Norbert Chwat. I represent here 22 candidates 22 for Council. Twenty-two candidates, who because of 23 what is going on, decided to run for the City 24 Council, some because of their own ideas, some 25 because the areas in which they live are going Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 211 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 downhill and they have got to do something about 3 this. But we have meld it down to about five or six 4 of the 22 because of the hours of the day, so we 5 apologize for that. 6 I just want to mention something. I 7 have here Intro. 880, and I have listened to all of 8 the philosophical discussions, and they are very 9 exciting, but let me just ask you this: 10 On page two of Intro. 880, line 15 11 through line 18, it says as follows: I am sure you 12 people know this, because this is your bill. 13 "The Council therefore finds that the 14 term limits provision adopted by public referendum, 15 two referendums, constitute an inappropriate 16 imposition by the majority of the voters on the 17 individual liberties and voting rights of all 18 voters." 19 This is not my words, these are the 20 words of Intro. 880. 21 And then it goes on to something 22 else, and that is the part that I don't understand, 23 and I don't even want an answer from it, I am just 24 giving it out. 25 "... And that this undue power of the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 212 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 majority is contrary to well-established standards 3 of democracy." 4 And if you ask anybody in the fourth 5 grade or the seventh grade or something what 6 democracy is, they will tell you it is a rule of the 7 majority. 8 Furthermore, I don't think that -- I 9 don't want to use wrong words, because the 10 Chairwoman would be upset -- I feel that there is 11 something wrong, and when somebody tells me that if 12 I am running for Council, and if I make it, I will 13 make it, that I don't have the moxy and the 14 intelligence that I can do the same thing that you 15 people are doing, when I get there and I sit in 16 those seats. 17 I am a retired foreign service 18 officer, I am a U.S. Diplomat, and in Forest Hills 19 and in Regal Park where I live, I was a member of 20 Community Board 6. I have other jobs, and I am just 21 saying that I have the intelligence to be a 22 Councilman. So, therefore, and where it says on top 23 that the people, and on line two, that the career 24 staff will help them -- will not help them, because 25 they will run the Council. I am saying that I could, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 213 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 and with the help of the people that are staff 3 people that are helping you right now, they are 4 working with you right now, that I could do the same 5 thing and learning as I go along. Because if the 6 people of my district want me, then I am going to 7 get on the Council, and with my experience behind 8 me. And I am not sure, I am not sure, ladies and 9 gentlemen, don't quote me on this, but I have a 10 feeling that I am the oldest candidate for City 11 Council in this City, and I will run for it 12 regardless of what anybody says, and I will make it, 13 and then you can talk to me when we are colleagues. 14 Thank you very much. 15 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you for 16 your testimony. 17 Let me assure you of one thing. I 18 know of no reason why the Councilwoman or the Chair 19 would get upset because you decided to run. That is 20 your personal right as a citizen, meeting the 21 requirements of the law. You are free as any other 22 citizen who meets the requirement of law to run for 23 public office. 24 As a matter of fact, that was the 25 purpose of campaign finance, to assist you and to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 214 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 enable you to run for office. 3 The other thing that we have done is 4 to ask campaign finance, the Campaign Finance Board 5 to provide classes and courses, so that if you were 6 not able to do that for yourself, or if you needed 7 additional support, that would be available for you. 8 I am sure you don't require that, but 9 if you did, it would be available for you. 10 The Chair does not get upset because 11 you choose to run. If you want an explanation of 12 something in the legislation, unlike a prior speaker 13 who could not answer questions and said you would 14 have to ask a certain party, we have representatives 15 who drafted the legislation present who could answer 16 your questions, if that is a real question and you 17 have a specific part of the legislation that you 18 would like an answer to. And if you would identify 19 that portion of the legislation, that you want to 20 receive an answer to, I am sure we can get you an 21 answer now. 22 MR. CHWAT: Thank you very much, Ms. 23 Chairwoman. I don't think I will do that right now. 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, so that 25 objection that you had is now satisfied? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 215 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MR. CHWAT: Yes. And I didn't mean -- 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: All right, fine. 4 I just wanted to know because I don't want you to 5 feel we are withholding information from you, 6 because that we would not do. 7 MR. CHWAT: No, that was not my idea 8 at all. 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: All right, fine. 10 All right, then. Thank you so much. 11 MR. CHWAT: Thank you. 12 We have some other members of the new 13 22 that would like to say something. 14 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: All right, fine. 15 MS. PUASAN: Good afternoon. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Good afternoon. 17 MS. PUASAN: My name is Mulah Puasan 18 (phonetic), and I am waiting for the 40th District 19 in Brooklyn. 20 Madam Chair, in 1993, I voted for 21 term limits. Again, in 1996, I confirmed my vote. I 22 am proud to say I was among the 1.8 million people 23 who voted for term limits, and now -- 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: How many? 25 MS. PUASAN: I said 1.8 million Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 216 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 people. 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You have more 4 people voting for term limits than the Board of 5 Election had. But whatever the number that you had, 6 you were among that group; is that what you are 7 saying? 8 MS. PUASAN: Yes, I was. That is what 9 I said. 10 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. That 11 exceeds the number that the Board of Election 12 registers. You voted for term limits in 43 and 46 -- 13 '93 and '96, okay. 14 MS. PUASAN: I don't think we are 15 doing math work right now. 16 Today as a candidate, I am still 17 supporting term limits, even though I know in eight 18 years I will be faced with the end of my tenure as a 19 City Councilperson. 20 I chose to speak today on 21 qualification and experience, because I know that 22 experienced doctors do operate on the wrong side of 23 the brain. I am honored to be a member of the new 24 22, a coalition of candidates in favor of term 25 limits. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 217 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Our coming together is meaningful in 3 many ways. It is a clear indication that we have 4 given ourselves a timeframe to do our work. 5 Above all, we don't waste time, we 6 then begin to work together before we take office. 7 And this is continuity that we are going to bring 8 into the Council. 9 I hope this will somewhat appease the 10 anxiety of the incumbents who fear that a bunch of 11 inexperienced newcomers are going to take the seats. 12 You should know that most of us, if 13 not all, are coming here with much more experience 14 and education. Often we have been the ones to inform 15 the City Council members of the problems in their 16 communities, through hearings and what they call 17 focus groups. 18 I, myself, am coming here with 18 19 years of community organizing and advocating, added 20 to a master's degree in public administration, and a 21 master's degree in social work. 22 Do I know the budget process? I know 23 it too well for knowing that it can be very 24 unbalanced. Do not underestimate the intelligence of 25 the voters. They are educated, and we want to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 218 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 educate them, and we are going to do that. We have 3 the means, and you will be surprised, in fact they 4 will show you that they are not that stupid, and 5 they will know who to vote for November 11th, 2001. 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: In response to 7 your statement. The fear that we have is not that 8 you as an individual candidate or the gentleman who 9 spoke before you would be unprepared, that is not 10 our fear. 11 We would expect that you would be 12 prepared, and it is not our responsibility to 13 determine what your preparation is. 14 What we are talking about simply 15 would be that if you had a large workforce or large 16 number of Council Members, who lacked -- and this is 17 not directed at you or any other group, it is as a 18 Council as a whole, usually you do not start well, 19 if you have lost all experienced personnel or a 20 large boy of personnel at one time. 21 I have no fear that you are 22 experienced. One of the things that people do is 23 they find people that are well educated and well 24 trained, as you two must be, and bring them in 25 because you are going to be in a sense their poster Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 219 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 girl. It is necessary for you to be there to be 3 proof positive, one, that they are concerned about 4 the community, including you, and they are going to 5 take the best so that they can say, see, we do the 6 right thing. We have gotten the right people in 7 these jobs. We know what we are doing, we are the 8 best. That is usually done that way. They are going 9 to recruit you, and, so, I am not surprised. You 10 come from a community of people that are very 11 industrious, and that do very, very well -- 12 MS. PUASAN: Thank you. 13 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And I have no 14 fear about that. As a matter of fact, I can recall 15 being on a sound truck, and saying as I went through 16 East Flatbush, and Flatbush, Haitians, come out, 17 vote, vote. Anasteed is running for President soon, 18 you have to vote, you have to vote, you have to vote 19 - and watched them come out. 20 MS. PUASAN: And that is why we made a 21 very big difference this time. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And when they 23 came out they voted, and they do vote, so you are 24 not surprising me. 25 I also made sure that a precinct that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 220 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 had a large Haitian population had to hire civilian 3 populus who spoke Creole so that the Haitians in 4 that community would have representation in that 5 precinct. Not because of the fact they were 6 criminal, but because if they came in on aided 7 calls, someone would be there who spoke their 8 language. And we did the same thing in the Council. 9 So, we were expecting you. We think 10 you are delayed in coming forward, but we have been 11 looking for you and waiting for you. 12 MS. PUASAN: Thank you very much. 13 But I want to make -- 14 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, the next 15 person. 16 MS. PUASAN: No, I want to make a 17 comment that until there is redistricting, right now 18 I am going to be a City Councilperson for everybody 19 in the district, not just for Haitians. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You are going to 21 be a what? 22 MS. PUASAN: I am going to be a 23 Councilwoman for everybody in the district, not just 24 for Haitians. 25 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Well, I Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 221 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 understand that, but I am talking about one thing 3 that has to happen, whether you like it or not or 4 believe it or not, there isn't a large Haitian 5 population that is represented in terms of the 6 Council for employment, or most places in the City 7 of New York. So, you can look with surprise, but I 8 can go into many offices and how many Haitians will 9 you find there? There are certain specific jobs in 10 certain specific areas where I will find a large 11 Haitian population, but I am saying we are glad to 12 see you. So, we didn't think you were not qualified. 13 We are just saying we would be happy to see you on 14 the Council. We are looking for Chinese or Asian 15 people to come on the Council. We are looking for 16 more Greek-Americans to come on the Council. We want 17 the City of New York to be reflective in this 18 Council, that is our purpose. So, you are not 19 surprising us. Welcome to the City. 20 MS. CHWAT: I look forward to working 21 with you. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. I 23 won't be here, but I am looking forward to hearing 24 about you being here. 25 Yes, the last young lady. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 222 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MS. POPE: Yes, good afternoon, 3 everyone. My name is Sandra Pope, and I am running 4 for Council District 27. 5 The speech I prepared is, we are a 6 proud coalition of 22 new candidates for the City 7 Council. We are proud to stand up against those 22 8 standing Council Members who are ignoring the 9 people's vote for term limits. 10 We have to ignite ourselves to make 11 life of a dead issue, we have to fight for the 12 people's choice and defend the democratic fight to 13 run for political office. The 22 who are giving life 14 to overturn term limits are absorbing the taxpayers' 15 money which should be quarantined for school books 16 and physical education and updated computers. 17 Those 22 should be putting a closing 18 to their term by presenting all of the great bills 19 they have passed and extend a handout to help the 20 new 22 with new ideas that will keep the City on 21 target. 22 I believe that the old 22 are 23 shakened over ill accomplishments throughout their 24 10-, 20- and 30-year terms, and as the new 22 take 25 on their position, we will be amazed of the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 223 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 possibilities that never came to fruition. 3 The new 22 are branded with a 4 long-term fight against those who want to overturn 5 the will of the people. 6 I also want to add that we are not 7 playing on the same grounds as the incumbents, and 8 we do have a huge amount of apathy with our 9 community in terms of voting. I ran for school 10 board, and when I went to candidates nights, out of 11 a school of 800, only ten parents would be there. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: What district is 13 that? 14 MS. POPE: Twenty-nine. That's my 15 district, in Queens. I ran for State Assembly and 16 the same thing happened there, I ran against the 17 incumbent, everybody talked about a 33 percent, I 18 won 33 percent against the incumbent in a five-week 19 span of promotion and advertising and all of that. 20 So, now, when we come down to running for the City 21 Council, I thought we had an opportunity to play on 22 a fair ground. We are not playing on a fair ground, 23 additionally, because the incumbent also has their 24 clones that they put in place to run against us. We 25 still don't have the full playing ground. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 224 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 We have a big job to do as 3 candidates. You are speaking to us as though we 4 almost won this position of Council seats. We have 5 to first get on the ballot, we have to promote. We 6 should be out promoting right here and now instead 7 of here supporting an already dead issue. We have to 8 first get on the ballots, then we have to run in the 9 primary, and to show you apathy, the apathy of the 10 people has been very low, because primary day nobody 11 comes out to vote. And that is why the incumbents 12 always win, because the incumbents have the ability 13 to send out millions of copy to the apathetic voter, 14 they have millions of dollars to have phone banks, 15 they have millions of dollars to do all of the 16 things that we as candidates should be able to do, 17 but we cannot. 18 And we cannot talk about, we cannot 19 talk about four to one, because four to one, you 20 only get that in August, and by the time the people 21 come back from vacation, nobody cares whether you 22 have 10 million or not except with the incumbents 23 anyway. So, it doesn't do us any good whether we 24 have one or two million. 25 So, the point is -- I am not finished Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 225 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 -- the point is that -- 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Did someone 4 interrupt you? 5 MS. POPE: Pardon me? 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Did someone 7 interrupt you? 8 MS. POPE: No. 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Oh, okay. So, 10 then, no one stopped you from finishing, right? 11 MS. POPE: Thank you very much. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. 13 MS. POPE: So those who are making 14 light of the numbers of people who come out to vote, 15 if there is one vote, it is the vote of the people. 16 And I don't think one vote should be ignored just 17 because somebody else in the group feels that that 18 vote is not important, because then we have the 19 fear. The fear that we have is manipulation of the 20 democratic policy. It is not the fear of all of us 21 being new and inexperienced. Because as my 22 colleagues said, as the Councilperson said, you 23 can't talk about teachers with experience, you can't 24 talk about doctors with experience, because just in 25 the news two weeks ago, a doctor removed the wrong Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 226 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 leg from a patient, and he is an experienced person. 3 So, we can't use those analogies to 4 quality anybody who has a position or anybody coming 5 in the position. 6 Thank you very much. 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You are quite 8 welcome. 9 Now, let me respond to you. 10 MS. POPE: Yes. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: First of all, 12 you were invited to this body because this was an 13 opportunity for you to have a hearing and to discuss 14 this legislation, and to make a presentation. 15 As far as I know, there is no reason 16 for the Council members to be quarantined. 17 MS. POPE: I didn't say quarantined. I 18 didn't say Councilpeople, I said the money that is 19 being spent now, it should be quarantined for school 20 books -- 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You mentioned 22 quarantine in your testimony. 23 MS. POPE: That is what the relativity 24 was. It was not the Councilpeople. 25 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Well, when you Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 227 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 say quarantined -- 3 MS. POPE: The taxpayers' money -- 4 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You don't mean 5 that it should be quarantined, you meant -- 6 MS. POPE: Well, we used a different 7 terminology. 8 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. Given 9 your background as you stated it, for the money, you 10 meant that the money should be impounded or the 11 money should be withheld, or the money should be in 12 escrow, but the money should not be spent, but 13 certainly when you say quarantined, I am looking for 14 whomever has this infectious disease should be -- 15 MS. POPE: Wrong terminology. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. No, 17 wrong terminology, but not with the background you 18 stated to me. There is an implied understanding of 19 the language that would tell me you don't mean 20 quarantined. 21 The second thing, when we invited and 22 sent out notice, and the people who called my 23 office, we called them back and said this is the 24 date of the hearing, this is the time of the 25 hearing, and you are going to have an opportunity to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 228 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 state your feelings. 3 It didn't mean you have to beat us up 4 because we said come to the hearing and tell us how 5 you feel about term limits. You may not like the 6 idea, you have a perfect idea not to like this bill. 7 You have a perfect right not to like it. 8 Council Members who object to having 9 people say how dare you, you are no good in the 10 first place, have a perfect right also to say, how 11 dare you ignore my contribution in what we have done 12 over years and say that we are no good, we haven't 13 done anything et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and 14 in the meantime I am going to the Brooklyn Museum, I 15 am going to the Botanic Gardens, I am going to go to 16 all of the things in the City that I enjoy and don't 17 talk about computers and that we didn't do anything, 18 who here worked to put computers in schools last 19 year from the budget? Anybody put computers in their 20 schools? Anybody here did anything for a senior 21 citizen? Anyone put anything in medical programs? 22 You didn't put a dime in. Did anyone do anything? 23 Did anyone do anything in terms of helping the AIDS? 24 Anyone do anything for cancer? From the monies that 25 the City gives us? But you don't have to spend your Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 229 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 money that way. No one tells you how to spend your 3 money, but you choose to put it back in the 4 community. 5 So, I just wanted to say to you, I 6 just want to say to you, when we differ with you, 7 it's not because of the fact that you choose to run. 8 We all chose to run. We know that we made a choice 9 to run, and you have a perfect right to run. 10 It doesn't matter. And even if there 11 were no term limits, you have an absolute right to 12 run. And because you choose to run against us, 13 doesn't mean that we have to like the fact that you 14 run against us, but we certainly have no right to 15 stop you or attempt to stop you. 16 MS. POPE: May I comment on that? 17 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: No, no, I am 18 going to answer you. 19 If 22 people decide to get together 20 and form a compact and think they are going to run 21 their campaign that way, that's your decision. We 22 have nothing to do with that. But what we say to you 23 is we will answer your question, give you 24 information, but when you talk, we are going to say 25 this is our information and we are going to ask you Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 230 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 questions. 3 Now, you may not like the fact that 4 we question you, and I will tell you, you got more 5 information from us than you gave us, because we 6 heard that you couldn't answer questions, well, we 7 don't know the answer to this, well, I don't have 8 this before me, I will send it to you, I think it is 9 this, we should have that, well, I don't know. That 10 is what I am talking about. 11 So, when you are a Council Member, 12 you will know that when you deal with any kind of an 13 agency and they call you, you are going to have to 14 answer questions. 15 MS. POPE: May I comment on that? 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Yes. 17 MS. POPE: You know, we are not -- to 18 me it is a mockery -- 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Well, you may 20 consider it to be mockery -- 21 MS. POPE: That's my opinion. That's 22 my opinion. 23 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: No, no. I am 24 going to run this part only. I am only saying this 25 to you, not because I want a debate, simply that is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 231 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 the way life is in this body. And in any body when 3 you are called before a committee, you have to 4 present information. You are subject to making a 5 presentation, but you also have to understand when 6 you make a presentation you are subject to being 7 asked questions, and what we did was try to get 8 information, and we appreciate your appearance. We 9 are impressed with you as candidates, and there is 10 no age limit. We run the gamut. 11 MR. CHWAT: Thank you. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: We run the 13 gamut. And, so, we welcome you, if you are 14 successful, to the Council. Some of us will not be 15 here by choice, and it is not because we are afraid 16 of you, because I think you set yourselves up in 17 such a way that we don't have to be afraid of you. 18 You knock your own selves out. 19 So, good luck to you. 20 MS. POPE: Thank you. 21 MR. CHWAT: Thank you. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Cathy Stewart. 23 MS. STEWART: Good afternoon. My name 24 is Cathy Stewart. I am the Chair of the Independence 25 Party of Manhattan. I have thought a lot about Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 232 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 today's hearing, and, frankly, I am amazed that you 3 are having a hearing on whether to overturn two 4 public referenda enacting term limits. 5 I firmly believe that there are 6 innumerable reasons why this City needs term limits. 7 Term limits foster competition and bring new blood 8 into government. They break up institutionalized 9 incumbency protection, eliminating the career 10 politician and the patronage system that nourishes 11 him or her. But the strongest evidence that we need 12 term limits is the behavior of those City Council 13 members who place their own self interests ahead of 14 what the voters wanted, not once, but twice. 15 Today's hearing is not a serious 16 public debate on what the best policy is, indeed 17 there is actually no reason for this debate, the 18 public has already spoken. 19 The Council tried to reverse public 20 opinion once and failed, the voters chose term 21 limits twice, in spite of the fact that virtually 22 every elected official and newspaper editorial board 23 opposed them. 24 This is a serious repudiation of your 25 position on this matter. You have had five years to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 233 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 open up a public debate on term limits, but you did 3 nothing. 4 The proposed legislation to overturn 5 term limits is an insult to the intelligence of the 6 public. First, it calls term limits artificial. 7 There is nothing artificial about term limits, term 8 limits are what the voters really want. 9 Next the legislation cites the 10 supposed harmful impact that term limits will have 11 on minority voters and minority communities, an 12 alleged loss of seniority and committee chairs. I 13 remind Council members that not only did the City's 14 minority communities overwhelmingly vote for term 15 limits, over 65 percent, but term limits eliminate 16 seniority all together. Thus, the notion that 17 minority communities will lose seniority 18 representation is false. 19 A history of other cities with term 20 limits shows that rather than minorities, and I 21 might add, women, losing seats, the exact opposite 22 occurs. 23 For example, in Kansas City in 1991, 24 the first year after the term limit vote, minorities 25 were returned to all of the seats they previously Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 234 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 held, the number of women on the Council increased 3 from three to five, and a black Mayor was elected 4 for the first time in the City's history. 5 In New Orleans term limits resulted 6 in an eight-member council, of which five were black 7 and three were women. 8 The legislation also claims that 9 "term limits will deprive the electorate of the 10 right to democratically elect local representatives 11 of its own choosing." Meaning that voters will lose 12 the right to vote for an incumbent. 13 Obviously the voters decided they 14 prefer to forfeit that right in order to create a 15 citizen legislature. 16 I would like to pose a challenge to 17 the Council. If you are concerned with the 18 disenfranchisement of the voters, then a logical 19 next step is to implement proportional 20 representation. 21 In an off-year non-presidential 22 election, voter turnout has ranged between a mesally 23 21 to 42 percent. This means that between 58 percent 24 and 79 percent of the voters are disenfranchised, 25 and that some Council members were elected with less Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 235 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 than 11 percent of the vote. Is it fair that 11 3 percent of the vote is determine the outcome for 4 everyone? Proportional representation is a system in 5 which legislatures are established according to the 6 proportionality of the vote. 7 If a party or coalition fielding 8 candidates gets 11 percent of the vote, it gets 11 9 percent of the seats. 10 Proportional representation invites 11 diversity and creates a process in which every vote 12 counts. 13 I will conclude with reminding the 14 Council that the Independence Party is New York's 15 fastest growing party, we are line C on the ballot. 16 The Independence Party has 50,000 registrants in New 17 York City and beyond that represents the 750,000 18 non-aligned registered voters in the City. 19 The Independence Party will take 20 stock and remind all New Yorkers how you vote on 21 term limits. 22 Thank you. 23 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 24 Moskowitz. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Thank you, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 236 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Madam Chair. And thank you, Cathy, for being here 3 and your testimony. I stay this to all the people 4 remaining, you have been incredibly patient to stay 5 here throughout the whole day, it shows a real 6 commitment to being part of this process. So, I 7 wanted to just being by saying that. 8 I agree with some of your 9 conclusions. I guess I am a little surprised by your 10 third paragraph, "today's hearing is not a serious 11 public debate on what the best policy is," and I do 12 feel a little bit of a need to comment. 13 I have only been here for 16 months, 14 so I am new at this, but I have found this to be one 15 of the most substantive and engaging debates that we 16 have had. I think there is really genuine pro and 17 con on both sides, I think a lot of sophisticated 18 points have been made, and I guess I would just, you 19 know, things can always be better and I would agree 20 with that. But I think we should appreciate that 21 this is -- I think it is a substantive debate, and I 22 think people's minds aren't necessarily made up. I 23 don't think this is a dog and pony show. I think 24 people are trying to figure out how to look at this. 25 MS. STEWART: Well, I certainly Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 237 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 appreciate your point of view on this, and what I am 3 referencing is the lateness of the hour. That we are 4 well into one of the most critical election cycles 5 facing the City, with the very fine Campaign Finance 6 Program with term limits in effect, and here we are 7 in March of this year. 8 So, I think what I am raising with 9 the Council is if this was such a serious concern 10 for the Council, why weren't we working on this and 11 getting input from citizens and community groups and 12 political parties a year ago, two years ago. 13 It seems very hard for me to believe 14 that this Council and this Committee is open to 15 serious input, given the lateness of the hour, and 16 that the City Council loss a referenda, the voters 17 have strongly, strongly made their case, and I am 18 very concerned that the Council hear what the voters 19 say. Even though you may not like it, you may not 20 think it is good public policy, twice the voters 21 said it is the policy they want to see enacted. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: I certainly 23 hear your point about the lateness, but I guess I 24 wouldn't underestimate the sincerity and the 25 interest in the topic. I think this is real public Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 238 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 debate and I am very appreciative of that. And I 3 wish that on all of our topics we had this many 4 members of the public come in. When we debate 5 education budget policy, sometimes there isn't a 6 single person in the audience, even though it is a 7 $12 billion budget, so to me this is a very 8 important and good sign that all of you are here, 9 and I think my colleagues are very serious in 10 thinking about these issues. 11 But I did want to ask you one 12 question just to understand how you are thinking 13 about this. Because you seem to suggest that 14 popularity should determine what is right. And I 15 guess I am wondering, is there any instance in which 16 a referendum could be passed where you could imagine 17 a deliberative legislative body saying even though 18 the public voted on it, this is not the right thing 19 to do? 20 Or is your position, no matter what, 21 if there is a referendum, and the people say aye, no 22 matter how many, we should always do what they say? 23 MS. STEWART: Excellent question. I 24 think that obviously there are times in which 25 referendums that are voted on and passed by the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 239 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 electorate need to be overturned, for example, if 3 they violate the Constitution of the United States, 4 they violate civil rights, they violate the City 5 Charter. Term isn't that kind of referendum. In 6 fact, the citizens of New York City have the right 7 to enact just this kind of public referendum. 8 They have very limited rights in the 9 referenda field in New York City, but this is one. 10 Changing the City Charter, literally circumscribing 11 the kind of legislature they want. 12 You see, I think term limits isn't 13 simply about the number of terms an elected official 14 serve, it is about the character of the City 15 Council. Are we creating a citizen legislature? Or 16 are we creating a body that is more aptly described 17 as career politicians. 18 The voters of the City of New York 19 are trying to create a climate, they voted for 20 Campaign Finance Reform, they voted for term limits 21 to move us in the direction of a citizen legislature 22 with very healthy and lively turnover. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: If I could 24 push you a little further? 25 MS. STEWART: Please. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 240 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Because I 3 am not sure I understand the intellectual 4 distinction that you are making. 5 You are saying that term limits, so 6 only if the referendum violated a state 7 constitution, what about our function as independent 8 thinkers, where we -- in other words, you can't 9 imagine the circumstance in which the popular thing, 10 someone, an honest broker who simply says, even 11 though everybody else thinks one way, I have a 12 responsibility as an individual legislator, and I am 13 not saying this is the case, because I don't support 14 this, but I just want to understand your 15 perspective, can't you imagine a context where 16 either for reasons of individual conscience, or 17 because you really thought that popularity doesn't 18 always determine what is right? 19 MS. STEWART: Certainly. And 20 presumably that is why the City Council put an 21 initiative back on the ballot in 1996, because they 22 weren't satisfied with the voters first weigh-in on 23 this. 24 That was appropriate. And the voters 25 spoke again. So, at a certain point, as a legislator Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 241 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 you must put your own interest behind the interest 3 of what the public is telling you, or you vote your 4 conscience, and that is certainly everyone's right. 5 But I can certainly see the role of a legislature in 6 this situation to really look at the fact that the 7 voters have spoken twice, very definitively, on this 8 matter. 9 If the City Council is not satisfied, 10 or there are things that need to be tweaked, you can 11 put it back on as a referendum. But it is somewhat 12 cynical for the City Council to be changing this in 13 the midst of an election cycle after two public 14 referenda. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER MOSKOWITZ: Thank you. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 17 Reed. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: Thank you, Madam 19 Chair. And thank you for presiding over a very long 20 and emotional meeting with the plum (sic) that you 21 have. 22 First, I also want to just offer a 23 bit of an apology or brief apology to some of you 24 that I have not been able to be attentive and here 25 at every minute. It is not that I haven't listened Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 242 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 to everything everyone has said, a lot of times I am 3 standing in the back, but I do apologize. It is part 4 of the life at the Council that there are things in 5 each one of our individual districts that sometimes 6 just aren't going to wait, no matter what 7 conversation we are having in this body, when the 8 beeper is going off about some life and death issues 9 in the district, you just have to try to tend to 10 them. So, I apologize if anybody feels that I have 11 shown disinterest in what their point of view is. 12 There has been a lot of discussion 13 about self-interest, and self-interest in and of 14 itself is not a bad thing. I think many of people 15 who have come today to testify have their own self 16 interests, that's one of the reasons this motivates 17 them because they want to run for office, and they 18 feel that if we overturn this then their chances of 19 winning are diminished. That is a self interest, it 20 is probably a healthy self interest. 21 So, we keep throwing that term 22 around, and I am just concerned that somehow self 23 interest in itself has been made an evil, and I 24 think we need to put that in perspective. 25 I am also aware that at least four Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 243 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 people now have testified that based on the evidence 3 of the two referendum statistically, and the four 4 people who have shown me different things; you are 5 saying over 65 percent of the minority voted this 6 way, and somebody else told me they voted that way. 7 I have done an evaluation of the assembly district 8 nearest my district, so I think I know what my 9 district did. But I would certainly be happy to see 10 some evidence of some data, because you and Emery 11 and half a dozen other people have sat there and all 12 told us different things that came out of who voted. 13 I don't know where your evidence 14 comes from. I am surprised to hear that 65 percent 15 of"minority" people, I am not even sure what the 16 word means in this City anymore. You mean 65 percent 17 of the white folks? What does that mean? 18 So, we have to be very careful about 19 this terminology and the self righteousness and all 20 of that in this debate. But I am still listening 21 very carefully to what people have to say, but I 22 also did want to take the chance to apologize, that 23 I have not, perhaps didn't just lock in this chair 24 for the last nine hours, I am paying attention. 25 Thank you. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 244 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MR. STEWART: Council Member Reed, if 3 I could just tell you where my statistics come from. 4 My statistics are from the 1993 vote 5 where 60 percent of African-Americans who voted, 6 this is Citywide statistics, not broken down by 7 district, voted for term limits. Sixty-nine percent 8 of the Hispanic community voted for term limits. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: That's based on 10 someone telling you that. Because you don't know who 11 wrote it by race. That is a secondhand count, right? 12 MS. STEWART: It was based on the 13 traditional way those statistics are generated, 14 which is based on looking at districts and the 15 proportionality of representation in those 16 districts. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER REED: And that is how 18 they told us that Al Gore was going to be president 19 down in Florida. So, we all have to be careful about 20 how we use statistics. 21 Thank you, Madam Chair. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 23 Council Member Marshall. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: First of 25 all, make no mistake, a person's right to run for Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 245 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 office is not affected by this. This is a free 3 country and anybody who wants to run for office can 4 run for office, whether there is term limits or no 5 term limits. Because I have heard it said as though 6 we are stopping people from giving them the right to 7 vote, which is not at all correct. 8 It is difficult to explain politics, 9 and when I get a new staff member, no matter how 10 bright they are, and I try to get the brightest, I 11 always tell them the hardest thing to understand in 12 all of this is the politics of it. 13 Now, one of the gentlemen who spoke 14 before, he said well the staff that is in place now 15 will be there for us. 16 That's not correct. The staff is not 17 permanent. The staff depends upon their positions by 18 the members who are in the Council. There will be 19 all new members in the Council, many of them will 20 want to see their own people. And I am not talking 21 about the staff in their districts, we are talking 22 about the central staff. 23 The central staff makes more money 24 than the Council people do, and they move around. To 25 say that they will be there for the new members Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 246 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 coming in is not necessarily so. 3 It would be terrible if people, and 4 that is what people are picking up, is that we are 5 saying nobody is as good as us - that is not the 6 case. It is not the person, it's the process. There 7 is a process here, okay? And maneuvering through 8 that process takes a lot. That's what our concern 9 is. I am not a member of this Committee. I don't 10 have to sit here. I am not even going to run again 11 no matter what, because I am running for another 12 office, it's very clear. I am here because I have a 13 concern about what will happen to this City and to 14 this body. 15 For 19 years, and even before I got 16 elected, I have been delivering services to people, 17 taking care of their problems, maneuvering the 18 bureaucracy, it will be very difficult. It will be 19 very difficult for a good while, the people who have 20 the four years now, they will only be able to stay 21 for two more years, they certainly have an idea of 22 how we function, and then they are out, who is going 23 to be the Speaker? 24 Many, many decisions have to be made. 25 We support the program at Baruch, which is going to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 247 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 help the people, in fact that will be a lot more 3 than I got. In fact, what we got was a one-day 4 orientation, the same thing in Albany -- well, in 5 Albany it was a three-day orientation, I was in the 6 Assembly for nine years too. 7 But knowing how this body operates is 8 what frightens us. 9 Now, New York City is the greatest 10 City in the world, the most complicated City in the 11 world. If you are going to change the government, as 12 was done by Mr. Emery's litigation, then you got to 13 put the best minds together, the students of 14 government, it takes a little time and that hasn't 15 happened here, it has not happened here. 16 Most of us are very concerned because 17 we know what goes on here, and the process has not 18 been thought out carefully. We are throwing the new 19 people that come in to the wolves, and they are 20 going to be scampering. We are talking about $40 21 billion worth of power. Now, some people will look 22 at it just like that. How is that going to be worked 23 out? 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 25 Marshall. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 248 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Okay. That's 3 my main concern. 4 MS. STEWART: Can I comment on the 5 issues that she raised? 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Yes. 7 MS. STEWART: Just a couple of 8 comments, Council Member Marshall. I think that the 9 voters are well aware that what term limits does is 10 to change the whole character of how -- 11 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: No, they are 12 not. They tell us all the time they are not. They 13 said, does that mean you are going to leave. 14 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: I wish they 16 were. 17 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member, 18 let's agree that they were not aware, because most 19 people aren't aware, they don't know. Just as we sat 20 here and people said, well, they are not worthy, 21 they don't do this, they don't know that, they don't 22 know the other, and I think that that is the 23 fallacy, because more people come into your office 24 and they will say Congress Member, or Assemblywoman, 25 or Mr. Congressman, because there isn't civics Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 249 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 taught anymore. Most people don't know. You have a 3 different population, you have a large immigrant 4 population. You have a lot of Americans who have not 5 been educated politically, so, they don't know. 6 People obviously don't read the 7 papers and the press does not carry anything of the 8 sort that would educate them as to what your elected 9 officials do. So, it's a totally different ball 10 game. 11 I think Council Member Fiala said 12 that in Staten Island, when he went to vote there 13 was nothing on that ballot that said some will serve 14 for six years, some for eight years, there was no 15 information. The public does not get sufficient 16 information in many instances. You know, what is it? 17 Caveat beware, let the buyer beware. 18 MS. STEWART: I guess my comment back, 19 Madam Chairwoman, is that what the voters of New 20 York is saying they are willing to buy term limits. 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: No, I think what 22 happens is the voters are not given information and 23 if you have enough money and if you spread enough 24 manure, you can sell it. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: I just would Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 250 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 like to add that, I will work hard -- 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: And whoever 5 replaces me -- 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. 7 Nicholas Farrin. 8 MR. FARRIN: My name is Michael 9 Farrin. I am a political activist on the Lower East 10 Side, and I am here to speak in support of Intro. 11 880. 12 The opponents of this bill are quick, 13 too quick, I would argue, to vote the will of the 14 people, as expressed in referendums (speaking in 15 Latin). That might be bad Latin, but it means the 16 voice of the people, the voice of the referendum. 17 Let's unpack this assumption. The 18 will of the people is a notoriously slippery 19 concept, as is the very concept of the people, I 20 would hope, by the way, that supporters of 880 will 21 refrain from any further use of the word mob to 22 refer to those who voted for term limits. It is 23 disrespectful and I think inaccurate, given how few 24 they were. Unless we simply define the will of the 25 people as being nothing but the results of a Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 251 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 referendum, how ever badly conducted, we must look 3 into the circumstances of each particular referendum 4 and into the history of the referendum in general, 5 as a mechanism of governance. Like all political 6 arrangements, the referendum was constructed by 7 human beings, and as such is the product of 8 compromised and contestation. 9 It cannot be taken as a benignly 10 neutral instrument that transparently reflects 11 something called the will of the people. 12 The referendum, as we know it today, 13 was first promulgated in the so-called progressive 14 era before World War I. It was advanced by 15 middle-class reformers, sought to curb the power of 16 urban ethnic political machines, which, despite the 17 corruption, that often attached to them, served 18 nonetheless as centers of power, how ever flawed, 19 for new immigrant groups. 20 So, let us not forget that the 21 referendum, as a political form, was born in a 22 distinctly nativist anti-immigrant climate, that did 23 not always take a particularly nasty tone. It was 24 also sometimes expressed in what I would call 25 settlement house paternalism, that would seek to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 252 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 educate a new electorate. Unfortunately, there was 3 more exclusion than there was education finally. 4 These middle class reformers also 5 wish to establish technicratic efficiency in 6 government, and essentially pro-business stance that 7 sought to weaken legislatures. Ironically, the 8 campaign for the referendum as an instrument of 9 democracy came on the heels of so-called electoral 10 reform, what Frances Fox Pivons calls "the system of 11 1896" that in effect disenfranchised many 12 constituents of the populous social movements of the 13 late 19th century. Even today the franchise in the 14 U.S. remains greatly restricted, through onerous 15 registration procedures, et cetera, the very sort of 16 thing we saw recently down in Florida. 17 In other western democracies, 18 registration and turnout are far higher, at times 19 approaching 100 percent. 20 Referendums have always been subject 21 to manipulation by those with power and money. This 22 is even more true today when expensive media 23 advertising has tended to replace or at least trump 24 grassroots organizing in the electoral campaigns. 25 Nor have referendums on balance been Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 253 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 used to further truly progressive, small p, 3 legislation. They have instead been used to exclude 4 low-income housing from certain localities, to deny 5 people their rights based on sexual preference, to 6 attack immigrants as in California, and on and on. 7 They also suffer the drawback of precluding any 8 meaningful deliberation. 9 Here is a proposal, take it or leave 10 it, that's it. Most voters deprived of adequate 11 information and debate simply choose not to vote on 12 these referendums. That's what the results of these 13 last ones we are talking about show. 14 This, by the way, is where the middle 15 class utopia of an on-line electorate voting 16 directly on even the minutia of government breaks 17 down. I think we got from the Independence Party was 18 a dilute version of that, her notion of the citizen 19 council, which the revolving door everyone gets a 20 turn. 21 There is a roll, I think a crucial 22 one, for full-time legislators, yes, even career 23 legislators, especially with four to one matching, 24 voters can dispatch those who in their estimation 25 perform poorly. I think at this point New York City Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 254 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Council is a more democratic institution than the 3 referendum procedure. I think most of you, and 4 certainly collectively, you were more in contact 5 with the people on an every day basis, and more in 6 contact with that effervescent will of the people 7 than any one-shot referendum, which is a snapshot of 8 a small group of people at one instant of time. 9 I urge you to pass Intro. 880. Thank 10 you. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I appreciate 12 your testimony. It causes some reflection. And I 13 wonder, in terms of some of the things you 14 mentioned, how indeed this Council could, and 15 perhaps maybe what I should do, and I think what I 16 will do, is reduce to writing my question, and then 17 through our counsel refer that to you, so that at 18 least there would be some thought given as to the 19 question I would like to ask on this issue. 20 MR. FARRIN: All right. I actually 21 wrote my testimony as I was waiting here all day. 22 So, I don't have it prepared, but I will have it 23 typed up and if I can get it to you in some manner? 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. That would 25 be helpful. But I think you gave us much to reflect Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 255 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 upon and I think it is very, very important and an 3 issue of this sort that we have that kind of 4 thinking. 5 So, Jay Damashek, who is Deputy 6 General Counsel, will be the person who you will 7 have contact from. If you have a card and we can get 8 that from you, then we will certainly contact you. 9 Thank you so very much. 10 Council Member Watkins, you had a 11 question? 12 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: I no longer 13 do, because what I wanted was a copy of your 14 statement so that is taken care of. Thank you. 15 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I have been told 16 that Council Member Lopez had a question for you. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: I defer to 18 Council Member Una Clarke, if it is fine with you. I 19 have a question for him. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: There are 15 21 people or so who are waiting, but if you would like 22 to ask this question, suppose you ask your question 23 and then Una will ask her question and both of you 24 will take into consideration the fact that we have 25 people waiting. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 256 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Mr. Farrin, is 3 it your opinion that a country should be legislated 4 by referendum? 5 MR. FARRIN: I think it is highly 6 impractical, and I don't think it is really truly 7 democratic. You don't have procedures for 8 interaction going back and forth. No, I don't think 9 it is a good idea. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Thank you. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER CLARKE: You raised a 12 couple of questions, not quite troubling to me, but 13 part of what we have debated in the district that I 14 represent. 15 You raised the issue of settlement 16 houses and immigrant communities, do you think it is 17 calculated, or is it coincidental that the states in 18 which there are more people of color, minorities and 19 immigrants coming, that they are the first states to 20 have term limits, California, Texas, New York and 21 the confusion in Florida, have you done any analysis 22 and recognize that the anti-immigrant sentiment is 23 so subtle as it was with -- segregation was at overt 24 because people know where they could go and where 25 they couldn't. Are you thinking that in many ways Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 257 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that the Kerner Report (phonetic) has a lot to do 3 with the two Americas that some do well in and 4 others are destined not to do well? 5 MR. FARRIN: I haven't done extensive 6 analysis, but I would think it highly likely that 7 there are factors like that in play. It certainly 8 was not lost on me when I started reflecting on this 9 whole term limits and referendum question that the 10 referendum and initiative and recall and those kinds 11 of things, and the City manager form that was 12 mentioned by one of the previous speakers, were 13 brought in precisely in an era which like our own 14 had large, large numbers of immigrants after a 15 period in which there was little immigration. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER CLARKE: Thank you very 17 much. I am the voice of an immigrant here. 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Then you are 19 going to have to take all the rest of the immigrants 20 with you, because Flatbush is full of them, so you 21 just cut that out. 22 Barbara Rochman. 23 Now, I am going to ask before you 24 speak, Jasper Niblock, are you here? Okay. 25 Would you speak into the mike, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 258 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 please. 3 MS. ROCHMAN: Good afternoon. I am 4 Barbara Rochman, I am the Public Policy Vice 5 President of the Women's City Club of New York. 6 When I testified here about two weeks 7 ago in favor of the four to one matching 8 contribution program, I told you that our 9 organization, the Women's City Club of New York, was 10 founded by suffragists who were seeking the vote for 11 women. And because of that, every vote is very 12 precious to us. And as a result we have been 13 philosophically opposed to term limits, because it 14 does dilute the vote, and in fact we did strongly 15 oppose the referendum on term limits. 16 Nonetheless, our Board of Directors 17 voted unanimously to oppose this current effort to 18 repeal the term limits, as both misguided and in 19 some cases self-serving. And we are disappointed 20 that many Council members for whom we have very high 21 regard are supporting this intro. 22 It may be too late now to even 23 remember what, I think one of your first witnesses, 24 Ed Wallace, said earlier in the day, but he talked 25 about, he called civic groups like ours part of the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 259 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 process crowd, and I just want to point out that in 3 a democracy process counts, and there is probably no 4 more important process in the electoral process. And 5 the November elections are eight months away 6 petitioning and the primary elections are much 7 closer. 8 Passage of this 11th hour legislation 9 can only create chaos during the campaign period. It 10 will foster court challenges that will throw the 11 elections into legal limbo, and this is one of the 12 fears that we have. 13 Various potential problems cited in 14 the proposed Local Law 880 raise legitimate concerns 15 about the impact of term limits, and we are not 16 questioning that those concerns that we have heard 17 here today are quite significant. 18 Nevertheless, we believe that the 19 negative consequences of this last ditch effort to 20 commit reelection of incumbent Council members would 21 be far greater. 22 The public is increasingly cynical 23 and disaffected from its government. They view 24 repeal of term limits as one more self-serving act 25 by public officials, and whether that is correct or Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 260 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 not, and I have heard some very good statements here 3 today as to why perhaps it is not correct, this is 4 the public climate that we are in, and our concern 5 has always been about getting the public to 6 participate in government, to see it as a worthy 7 venture for all of us, and we do fear that this will 8 be viewed rightly or wrongly in a very cynical way 9 which will remove people even more from their 10 concern with government. 11 So, while we continue to oppose term 12 limits in principle, we believe that Intro. 880 13 currently is not in the public interest. 14 Thank you. 15 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. Then 16 what I understand you to say is that while you 17 sympathize with the intent in terms of the question 18 of term limits, you feel that the attempt to at this 19 time, to repeal the legislation which passed in two 20 public referendums, would be so disastrous, or have 21 a disastrous impact? 22 MS. ROCHMAN: Well, yes, that's 23 basically -- 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: That it would 25 not be wise for the Council to overturn, or attempt Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 261 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 to overturn that issue? 3 MS. ROCHMAN: That is basically 4 correct. We do not -- 5 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And that you 6 also recognize the fact that you had a high regard 7 for the Council as such, but, there is that big 8 "but", the definitive "but" there, but the cost 9 would be greater than the benefit? 10 MS. ROCHMAN: Well, we are looking 11 overall at the public image that comes from this 12 repeal, that how it will be viewed generally by the 13 public. 14 I do want to add that we have not 15 taken any particular position about the overturning 16 of referenda. We are just concerned about the impact 17 on the elections that are coming up in 2001 and the 18 impact on the public. 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Has the Women's 20 City Club, and any of the organizations that have 21 that opinion, taken into consideration any role that 22 they might take in terms of what the position should 23 be in the sense of the Council as opposed to saying 24 that they will have a negative opinion of you? 25 MS. ROCHMAN: Well, I see what you are Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 262 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 saying. We agree with many of the objections to the 3 current situation, in terms of implementation of 4 term limits, and we would certainly go along with 5 that. 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. 7 MS. ROCHMAN: But we just took a 8 position that overall despite our objections to term 9 limits, we don't think this is a good idea right 10 now. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, fine. 12 Thank you. 13 Council Member Lopez, and then 14 Council Member Michels, and please consider I would 15 like to move it. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Ms. Rochman, I 17 have great respect for you. When I met you, you 18 intimidated me at the time, you don't intimidate me 19 any more. I have adoration for you only, but I just 20 want to ask you if the 21 Women's Club would be willing to meet with me? I 22 have taken this position, a position of principle. 23 This is not a position of anything else, and I need 24 the Women's City Club to understand that. I would 25 like to know if I can meet with you, in order for Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 263 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 you to have a conversation with me, outside of this 3 forum, in order not to take the time of people, to 4 tell me what was that went through, the discussions 5 that you had. 6 MS. ROCHMAN: I would be happy to do 7 that. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Thank you. 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Stanley Michels, 10 is there a need for your question? 11 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Yes. Barbara 12 Rochman is someone I have always admired. We have 13 been good friends for many years, and we don't see 14 each other that often, we have shared the podium at 15 various times, and I am appreciative of the fact 16 that the Woman's Club and you are against term 17 limits. And I think your concern, there is some 18 concern and it is a legitimate concern, but if I 19 tell you one of the reasons I was concerned about, 20 and that is why I am not running, but the issue 21 isn't us. The issue really is, is it good for the 22 institution, the City of New York, or not good for 23 it. And I think that is the reason you came down 24 against term limits, you know, as I know, that it 25 will have a bad effect on the City of New York. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 264 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 That is why we have decided to do 3 this as early as we can. Ultimately it would have 4 been better to do it last year, I agree with you. 5 MS. ROCHMAN: Definitely. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: But the whole 7 point is we want to get this done very quickly, so 8 that you still have the full petition period, the 9 full challenge period, and everyone has an 10 opportunity to be heard and be on the ballot. 11 There are some 20 of us, of the 35, 12 who are not running. That should also have some 13 weight, in your opinion. These people will be able 14 to run in those districts, in my district, people 15 who are already running, so that there will not be 16 that much chaos and problem with this, in certain 17 districts there may be, but most of us are not 18 running, because we feel the principle of term 19 limits, and doing away with it, is more important 20 than our individual right to run or not, even though 21 we do have that right. And the idea is that the City 22 Council, who we are very proud of, it has done some 23 wonderful things, believes, we believe it should 24 remain in a viable situation, and that in the future 25 there shouldn't be these term limits as well. And Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 265 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that is the reason we are doing it. We believe it 3 will not be the chaos because we hope to get this 4 finished at the end of this month. 5 MS. ROCHMAN: I understand your 6 position. 7 I do think that, as some of the other 8 speakers said, it would have been better if this had 9 been done earlier, or if it would be done 10 perspectively so that no one could accuse you, or 11 impute bad motives to you, whether they exist or 12 not, in terms of this upcoming election. And that 13 would have been preferable. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: I will 15 explain the political realities to you on the 16 future, and the future problem. 17 I have nothing to gain or lose as far 18 as this, I am just -- 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Would you 20 explain that afterwards, please? 21 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: I certainly 22 will. 23 Thank you, Madam Chair. 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you so 25 very much. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 266 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MS. ROCHMAN: Thank you. 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: 4 Mary Vavruska. 5 MS. VAVRUSKA: Good afternoon. My name 6 is Mary Vavruska, and I am speaking, too, as an 7 individual. I felt it important that I come to speak 8 and support you in your Local Law 880. I really do 9 support the repeal of term limits. I feel that I 10 have been disenfranchised. I certainly believe that 11 I am capable of selecting a qualified candidate and 12 should not be deprived of that right. 13 Just when Council Members will have 14 understood all that their job entails, they will 15 have to leave office with term limits. If there have 16 been successes in the current Mayoral 17 Administration, a good part of that success was the 18 legislation monitoring and budget expertise of 19 Council Members. 20 Now that may seem like a dramatic 21 statement, but believe me, I am around a lot, I 22 watch what is going on, I am pretty savvy and I 23 speak the truth. 24 There has been a great deal of talk 25 about the Campaign Finance Reform. Why isn't there Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 267 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 an effort to limit the expenditures that one person, 3 I won't even mention that person's name, it has been 4 bandied about quite a bit today, in advertising for 5 term limits. 6 I remember that was a pack that was 7 tried to be formed to oppose that effort, maybe it 8 was a little bit too late, but I contributed my 9 small $300 to that effort. Unfortunately, even 10 $1,300 comes nowhere near to what was spent in the 11 opposing effort. 12 Continuing the law of term limits 13 will indeed limit Council Members to activities such 14 as I am sorry to say, naming streets. Not that it is 15 not important. But, again, your reputations have 16 been bandied about, and it has been said that that 17 is about the scope of what you do. Believe me, it 18 really is as important as a lot of other things, but 19 there is no way that this Council has been concerned 20 about only that kind of agenda. 21 The Council members have done great 22 things and term limits are a slap in the face to 23 your efforts. 24 I strongly support you in your effort 25 to support Local Law 880. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 268 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Thank you. 3 ACTING CHAIRPERSON HARRISON: Are 4 there any questions? None? Helen? 5 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: I would just 6 like to add that Mrs. Vavruska is a woman who has 7 exercised her intelligence and her brilliance to 8 change things to make things happen. She has made it 9 her business to go after all of us who represent 10 her, in order to make sure that we are doing -- and 11 she is very creative, when she speaks, she speaks 12 with a lot of knowledge. Together we even challenged 13 the federal government when it came to a school 14 integration move. And I really have high respect for 15 her opinion, I didn't know exactly what it was going 16 to be. But thank you, Mary. 17 ACTING CHAIRPERSON HARRISON: Thank 18 you very much. 19 Mr. Joel Berger, please. 20 Please identify yourself by name and 21 organization. 22 MR. BERGER: Yes. Good afternoon. My 23 name is Joel Berger. I am an attorney. I am here 24 representing New Yorkers for Term Limits. I am the 25 voting rights expert who was alluded to by an Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 269 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 earlier individual who testified. 3 But, first, I want to give you a bit 4 of background. 5 I was your lawyer in 1991. I 6 represented you before the United States Department 7 of Justice to get your current districts precleared 8 under Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act. And prior 9 to that I spent a dozen years as a voting rights 10 expert at the NAACP Legal Expense and Education 11 Fund. And more recently in private practice, my 12 practice has consisted extensively of litigation 13 concerning police brutality, representing victims of 14 police misconduct against the City in federal court. 15 ACTING CHAIRPERSON HARRISON: Very 16 impressive. 17 MR. BERGER: I am not a right winger 18 by any means. I consider myself to be a liberal 19 democrat. 20 ACTING CHAIRPERSON HARRISON: I don't 21 label people. 22 MR. BERGER: All right. 23 But I am here today to warn you that 24 repeal of the 1993 term limit statute, which has 25 been precleared already by the Justice Department Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 270 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 some time ago, may very well violate the Voting 3 Rights Act. 4 In any event, you will have a very 5 hard time achieving preclearance. The Justice 6 Department will want to take a very long and hard 7 look, and that long and hard look takes between 60 8 and 120 days. Bear in mind that petitioning starts 9 June 5th and ends July 12th, it may be too late 10 already. 11 Preclearance will be difficult to 12 achieve because repeal of the term limit statute 13 would perpetuate the incumbency of at least some 14 Council Members at the expense of protective 15 minorities, who enjoy an advantage under the current 16 law. 17 Repeal would therefore constitute 18 what in voting rights we call retrogression. That is 19 a term of art, and it is the principle basis upon 20 which the Justice Department can and does frequently 21 deny preclearance. 22 Now, I have submitted with the 23 written testimony a scholarly and detailed report 24 that indicates the retrogression is indeed probable, 25 if you pass this repeal. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 271 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 The study is by Professor John 3 Molenchov, Director of the Center for Urban Research 4 at CUNY. He is well known to all of you, and one of 5 the most respected demographic experts in our City. 6 He was consultant to the 1991 Council Districting 7 Commission. 8 He notes, during the decade since the 9 1991 districting, and I quote, "In almost every 10 predominantly white Council district, the white 11 share of the population declined over the decade, 12 sometimes substantially, while the black, Hispanic 13 and Asian shares increased. 14 He has identified at least two such 15 districts in Manhattan, two in Brooklyn, two in the 16 Bronx, and several in Queens, that have even become 17 what we call majority/minority during the past 18 decade. 19 In these districts, members of racial 20 or language minority groups will have a far better 21 opportunity of electing candidates of their choice 22 under the current term limits law. 23 Just a moment more, please. 24 And repeal would in fact bring about 25 retrogression. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 272 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Furthermore, even if the Justice 3 Department grants preclearance there can still be 4 and probably will be litigation under the Voting 5 Rights Act. 6 I must emphasize in terms of the 7 argument that seniority would be -- minority members 8 of the Council would be helped if term limits no 9 longer exist, that argument has been rejected by the 10 Justice Department on at least three occasions. 11 Legislators, minority legislators of 12 longstanding seniority in California and in the City 13 Councils of San Antonio and New Orleans, all 14 attempted to block preclearance of term limits laws 15 in their jurisdictions based upon that argument, and 16 the Justice Department simply did not buy it. 17 Finally, I just want to add one last 18 point, which is not in my written testimony, but 19 which must be emphasized because there was some 20 misinformation this morning. 21 The right to vote is not violated by 22 term limits, and our New York Court of Appeals has 23 explicitly said so. It said so in the very case in 24 which this body tried to keep the measure off the 25 ballot in 1993. The name of the case is Roth versus Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 273 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Cuevas. 3 Now, I fully understand that some 4 people, such as my dear friend Richard Emery, my 5 longstanding associate Paul Crotty, may believe as a 6 matter of philosophy, and maybe others, I want it to 7 be absolutely clear, because it was not stated 8 clearly by either Mr. Emery or Mr. Crotty. It is not 9 the law. The law is to the contrary. Our highest 10 court has explicitly stated that the right to vote 11 is not violated by term limits. Term limits have 12 existed in this country for hundreds of years, as 13 you have heard from other witnesses, they have been 14 upheld in the courts numerous times, both federal 15 and local and state courts. As a matter of 16 philosophy I understand it. It's a very highly 17 respectable argument. 18 I asked Richard as he was leaving, I 19 said, Richard, you are not saying it is illegal, are 20 you? 21 He said, oh, no, no, no, no, I didn't 22 say that. I said, but you didn't tell them that the 23 Court of Appeals has upheld it either, did you? 24 The Court of Appeals has explicitly 25 upheld this thing. You are not going to get it Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 274 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 knocked out on a legal argument that violates the 3 right to vote. 4 Thank you. 5 But that is not why I am primarily 6 here. I would very much like to welcome questions 7 about the Voting Rights Act because I think it has 8 not been sufficiently discussed this morning. 9 ACTING CHAIRPERSON HARRISON: Council 10 Member Watkins, please. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Thank you for 12 your testimony, Mr. Berger. 13 On the first page, last paragraph, 14 you say that the reason for preclearance may be 15 difficult to achieve is that under the existing term 16 limits law several white incumbents will have to 17 retire, and there is a distinct possibility that 18 some could be replaced by Council Members preferred 19 by racial and language minority group voters 20 protected by the Voting Rights Act. 21 That statement, that language says to 22 me, it indicates that those people in so-called 23 majority, minority districts, who are represented by 24 white incumbents, Council members, would prefer 25 someone who speaks their language or is of their Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 275 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 ethnic background simply because. That is what this 3 indicates, that's the way it reads. 4 I will only say to you, that -- and I 5 will not mention the Council member, but I know of a 6 white incumbent colleague of mine who represents a 7 large minority area, and it wasn't about money, 8 because I don't know many, if any of my colleagues 9 who have spent as little money campaigning, and on 10 campaign literature, as this particular colleague, 11 and yet, has been reelected in the face of some 12 strong challenges because of the job that the 13 Council Member has done and the representation that 14 the Council Member has provided. 15 I have to say that in the 16 Congressional district in which I reside in Queens, 17 which now is extremely proud of its second 18 African-American Congressperson. For many years, 19 until his death, kept a white incumbent, not because 20 we couldn't elect someone else, but because he had 21 done such an outstanding job for us. 22 MR. BERGER: Congressman Adabo 23 (phonetic), right? 24 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Exactly. 25 Even at the time when he could have Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 276 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 ignored all of our votes, because there was so few 3 of us. But to indicate that the melanin that colors 4 our skin may sometimes affect our thought processes, 5 as well, so that we cannot distinguish between good 6 representation and the fact that the person may not 7 come from our ethnic background. That's not where it 8 is at in this day and age, that is a part that I 9 would rethink before I would rewrite and put it to a 10 group of people who are very careful about dividing 11 good representation, poor representation and one's 12 ethnic or racial background. 13 MR. BERGER: Council Member Watkins, I 14 think there is a great difference between us. The 15 Voting Rights Act explicitly states the opportunity 16 to elect candidates of their choice. It does not say 17 to elect candidates of the same race or ethnicity. 18 And those of us who work in this field are well 19 aware that that is what the statute says. And we are 20 well aware that there are instances in which 21 minority communities do vote for white incumbents 22 who have been particularly, provided particularly 23 excellent service. 24 State Senator Moskowitz in Brooklyn 25 is one example of someone who repeatedly is elected Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 277 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 under those circumstances. One could well argue that 3 Council Member Michels, given the demography of his 4 district, is another such individual. I don't know 5 if that was who you were referring to before, but I 6 think he would certainly fit that description and I 7 have great respect for him on that ground. 8 However, it is also true, and almost 9 all of the studies have shown also, that there is 10 extensive racial block voting in New York City. One 11 can only look for an example at the last two Mayoral 12 elections. 13 There is extensive racial block 14 voting and more often than not, you do get racial 15 block voting in particular districts. 16 And if you look at the Mollenkopf 17 study, which is attached to my testimony, and it 18 goes on for several pages with tables and with 19 charts, color-coded maps, I think you will find that 20 what he is saying is that there are a number of 21 districts, probably somewhere between eight and 12, 22 that are highly likely, if not this year then in the 23 future, because, remember, this is an outright 24 repeal, this isn't an extension law like in the 25 1996, or as staggering, as it was called in '96, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 278 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 whether or not it was we can disagree, this is an 3 outright repeal, so we are not just talking about 4 the election of 2001, we are talking about after 5 redistricting, 2003, 2005 and so on, if an incumbent 6 wants to stay in office, which at least some do, 7 even though some have said they don't. 8 There are districts that are turning, 9 and will continue to turn, and these are districts 10 that the demography is absolutely clear that some 11 are already majority/minority, that's between eight 12 and 12, others are moving in that direction. And if 13 racial block voting continues in the manner that it 14 usually does, although I absolutely agree with you, 15 there are exceptions, and those exceptions are quite 16 notable and noble, nonetheless, because racial block 17 voting is the norm rather than the exception in New 18 York City, we can assume that there will be a number 19 of instances in which the members of racial and 20 language minority groups will be denied an 21 opportunity to elect, as the statute says, 22 candidates of their choice. And if that is so under 23 repeal, then repeal brings about retrogression. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: But I don't 25 understand. If you are saying that there is going to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 279 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 be more of a change, then those districts will 3 become more minority, majority/minority, why would 4 they be then denied an opportunity? Unless the 5 district was gerrymandered and cut which under the 6 Voting Rights Act it may not be -- 7 MR. BERGER: First of all, that is one 8 possibility, because even with the Districting 9 Commission incumbent Council members do have a 10 certain amount of influence in redistricting. 11 But, secondly -- 12 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: But I am not 13 a voting rights expert, but I do know enough, 14 because we have studied some of it, that under the 15 Act one of the things that is prohibited is cutting 16 a district that is a minority district which then 17 makes it unlikely for a minority to be, or less 18 likely, to be elected. 19 MR. BERGER: The problem is, when you 20 are running against an incumbent, it is harder, when 21 you are running against a white incumbent, it is 22 always harder. 23 Look, for example -- I mean, don't 24 follow the election which turns closely, but I 25 remember, for example, Council Member Henry's Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 280 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 district, which had a white incumbent for many years 3 who in fact sued us over the redistricting when I 4 was at the Corporation Counsel's Office, Susan 5 Alter. And it was unquestionable that the advantages 6 of incumbency were very, very important to her, 7 though eventually she gave up and ran for Citywide 8 office. But there are many instances in which the 9 advantages of incumbency are the key thing that 10 prevents minority voters from having the opportunity 11 to elect candidates of their choice, and that is why 12 we believe that the current term limits law opens 13 things up. It provides greater opportunity for 14 minority voters, in districts that are already 15 represented by black and Latino Council members, 16 those districts are not going to change under 17 redistricting. 18 So, you start with that base to begin 19 with. Those districts, even if the present incumbent 20 cannot run, will elect another minority member. It 21 may not be from the same minority. Some districts 22 are moving from black towards Latino or towards 23 Asian, but you can add, you will add to that in some 24 districts, this year and in future years, if white 25 incumbents in districts that have become Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 281 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 majority/minority are under the current term limits 3 law prohibited from running. 4 Whereas, if you repeal the law, and 5 permit those incumbents to run, and some of them 6 will, even if some of them won't, then you are 7 creating what we call retrogression. 8 That's why I believe that 9 preclearance -- 10 ACTING CHAIRPERSON HARRISON: Calling, 11 what did you say? 12 MR. BERGER: What we call 13 retrogression. 14 ACTING CHAIRPERSON HARRISON: Okay. 15 MR. BERGER: That is the principle 16 basis upon which the Justice Department denies 17 preclearance, it is one of the things that a court 18 looks at in a Voting Rights Act lawsuit in the 19 federal courts. So you are getting a great deal of 20 uncertainty here, there will be litigation. 21 There probably, as I said at the 22 outset, and it is something that hasn't been paid 23 enough attention to, there probably is not enough 24 time for you to get it precleared even now. 25 Let's suppose you pass it tomorrow Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 282 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 and the Mayor signs it Monday, and the Law 3 Department gets its act together and files the 4 preclearance submission two days after that, there 5 is no guarantee that the Justice Department, 6 especially given the degree of opposition, and you 7 have certainly heard enough community opposition 8 today to realize that there will be some down in 9 Washington, there is absolutely no guarantee that it 10 would be precleared prior to the final day of 11 petitioning, which is July 12th. 12 ACTING CHAIRPERSON HARRISON: Okay, 13 thank you. Now, will you just sit there for a 14 minute? 15 MR. BERGER: Certainly. 16 ACTING CHAIRPERSON HARRISON: I have 17 three speakers, and I would ask, please, that each 18 one of the speakers be brief. 19 Stanley Michels first, Una Clarke 20 second, and Helen Marshall third. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Mr. Berger, I 22 know you are a very fine attorney, but you are now 23 here as an advocate, aren't you? 24 MR. BERGER: That's correct. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: And you are Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 283 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 representing Term Limits, and you are being paid, I 3 assume, by Term Limits? 4 MR. BERGER: Of course. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Right. 6 So, what you are saying to us has to 7 be taken with a grain of salt, of an advocate to a 8 certain extent, which is not a problem. You are not 9 speaking objectively, you are speaking as an 10 advocate. 11 MR. BERGER: I just want to respond 12 that if anybody here believes that either Ed Wallace 13 or Richard Emery is at no point down the road if 14 this passes going to be retained by somebody, I 15 think they don't understand the nature -- 16 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: But you do 17 know that they were here, they were not being paid, 18 they weren't representing anyone here. 19 MR. BERGER: That is what they said. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: So you are in 21 a different category than they are. 22 MR. BERGER: Temporarily. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Right. 24 Temporarily but nevertheless -- 25 MR. BERGER: If this gets into the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 284 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 courts and the Justice Department, I can assure you 3 I will not be the only retained attorney -- 4 CHAIRPERSON MICHELS: So, I assume -- 5 you are anticipating my next question, so, I assume 6 that when we pass term limits, repeal of term 7 limits, you will be in court representing New 8 Yorkers for Term Limits and trying to do your best 9 to say that we should not have preclearance? 10 MR. BERGER: Yes, and possibly some -- 11 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: So, some of 12 the distinctions you make here are self-serving 13 distinctions. 14 I am also familiar with the Voting 15 Rights Act, having been the Law Chairman of a 16 Democratic body for eight years, and I have handled 17 the Voting Rights Act, so I am familiar with it. 18 MR. BERGER: I do want to refer you to 19 the last attachment to my testimony. It is an 20 article I wrote when I was with the City, and long 21 before I entered private practice, which is an 22 objective article for which I was not paid, and 23 although it doesn't deal specifically with term 24 limits, it describes New York's history under the 25 Voting Rights Act, and it says things that I very Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 285 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 strongly believe. We have a bad record. We have a 3 very bad record. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Well, we were 5 out of the Voting Rights Act, then we went right 6 back in the Voting Rights Act. 7 MR. BERGER: We were out for about one 8 year. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: We are still 10 out, right? 11 MR. BERGER: This month marks the 30th 12 anniversary of us being under the Voting Rights Act, 13 Preclearance provisions of Section 5. And the reason 14 we are there, is because we had chronic undervoting, 15 we have a illegal literacy test. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Literacy 17 test, right. 18 MR. BERGER: We were one of the few 19 northern jurisdictions that had one. 20 And more than that, over the 30 years 21 that we have been under preclearance, we have had 22 numerous occasions on which the Justice Department 23 ruled against us, including the last two 24 redistrictings of this body. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: And you do Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 286 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 also know, that there is other ways other than going 3 to the Justice Department, you can get a declaratory 4 judgment in the Washington, D.C. District Court as 5 well. 6 MR. BERGER: It has on very rare 7 occasions-- 8 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: But it can be 9 done. 10 MR. BERGER: It can be done. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: I just want 12 to establish my credentials, because I have some 13 knowledge on this. 14 MR. BERGER: I don't doubt -- 15 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: And what you 16 are also saying to us is that, and I am one who is 17 not running, so the situation, I am glad you are 18 saying now I found another reason for not running, 19 because it might help our case for preclearance. You 20 also know that preclearance can be done in a quick 21 way, if, for instance, we were doing redistricting 22 this year, which many people think we should be 23 doing? 24 MR. BERGER: Oh, my recollection is 25 that the reason we moved up to redistricting in '91 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 287 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 is so that we would have enough time. We did it 3 within the 120 days, and -- 4 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: And there is 5 expedited -- 6 ACTING CHAIRPERSON HARRISON: Stan. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: There can be 8 expedited treatment. I don't want you to panic 9 anybody, you know there can be expedited treatment. 10 MR. BERGER: It can't be expedited as 11 fast as you want it expedited. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Nor as slow 13 as you want it. 14 MR. BERGER: Not with this kind of 15 community opposition. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER MICHELS: Thank you 17 very much. 18 ACTING CHAIRPERSON HARRISON: Thank 19 you. 20 MR. BERGER: By the way, that is not 21 just guess work, I have been in touch with the 22 Justice Department. 23 ACTING CHAIRPERSON HARRISON: Okay, 24 thank you. 25 Council Member Clarke. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 288 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER CLARKE: I think that 3 New Yorkers for Term Limits were wise when they 4 hired you, because they think that you would scare 5 us. 6 I happen to come from the district 7 you have been talking about so often, about Marty 8 Markowitz being the State Senator, and of course, we 9 had Susan Alter, we still have the Assemblymember 10 Oda Jacobs. We don't come from a community that 11 first looks at the color of the skin, as an 12 immigrant community, and let me speak from that 13 point of view first. 14 We look at quality and content and 15 service, and people many times look over constituent 16 service before they look at the deliverables that 17 needed to be there to be institutionalized within 18 that community. 19 I am its first, and I just want you 20 to know that preclearance can be had, and certainly 21 none of us sitting here tonight, and I am one of 22 those 20 that elected not to have run again, and I 23 made that decision even before this law came. 24 If you look at my record as an 25 immigrant to this country, every ten or 12 years I Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 289 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 have changed my profession. You know why? I have to 3 have fire burning in me to do the things that I do, 4 because I love what I do, and every job that I do, I 5 have to display confidence, ability and integrity in 6 it. And, so, no one needs to worry about my sitting 7 here, and being against term limits. 8 We have talked about what this 9 process is going to be, we have not talked about the 10 product, and the institution itself, called the City 11 Council, and what the power is, you can walk around 12 and say I am powerful for six years all you want, 13 until you know how to deliver for your district 14 those things that are needed, whether it is the 15 school, whether it is the libraries, it takes more 16 than that. There are capital projects that I have 17 put in place for the last five years that have not 18 yet come into fruition, so why would we in many 19 sense tell somebody who is going to come for six 20 years that they are going to achieve a lot and that 21 they are going to be powerful? Let me give you a 22 proposition that I think. I think the scare is about 23 minorities having equal power to determine what 24 happens in their community and how things are 25 institutionalized in their community, because we Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 290 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 have always had fathers to tell us that. 3 And when I became elected in the 40th 4 District, I made sure I told everybody that was not 5 a plantation, okay? That I was elected to serve the 6 people, and I will do what the people ask me to do, 7 when they ask me to do it, so I didn't have to 8 answer to the big brothers. 9 MR. BERGER: Council Member Clarke, 10 let me say this, having played the role in the 11 joining of your particular district -- 12 COUNCIL MEMBER CLARKE: Thank you so 13 much. 14 MR. BERGER: We -- 15 COUNCIL MEMBER CLARKE: And I think I 16 have done extremely well. 17 MR. BERGER: You have. 18 And my personal opinion, if I may 19 venture slightly to show you that I am not totally 20 on the same wavelength with every opponent of this 21 measure, if I had my druthers, we would have 22 staggered term limits a few years back and the class 23 of 91 which I helped create, would have been given 24 additional time on the Council, and we would have 25 simply retired the folks who were elected back in Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 291 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 the seventies and the eighties. That's my personal 3 opinion, and I think it would have been the best way 4 to go. 5 Unfortunately it wasn't done. 6 And now we are in a situation, a very 7 difficult situation, and let me add one final 8 thought, if 20 or so members who have to retire 9 under the law are planning not to run anyhow, and of 10 course these are people of honor, I take them at 11 their face value, if they say that, and that is the 12 truth, why do we need to rush into this law? Because 13 the very turnover, massive turnover, that you say 14 you are trying to prevent, is going to happen 15 anyhow. So, let's wait a year, let's put it on the 16 ballot, let's have a full and fair discussion, and 17 not rush this thing through. 18 While maybe Justice can get it 19 through, I agree with Stanley Michels, it is 20 conceivable. Not likely, but conceivable. But why 21 do we have to? If this many folks are going to 22 retire, we are going to have the big turnover 23 anyhow, and let's debate it for the future in a 24 sound and rational way where we are not rushed. 25 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. Are Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 292 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 we on the topic of this? Okay, fine. 3 As I understand it, Council Member 4 Marshall has a question, too? 5 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Yes. 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Fine. Let's keep 7 it brief so that we can get to the next person. 8 The only concern I have is when 9 people come into our community and tell us who best 10 can serve us, and it sounds patronizing, and I know 11 you didn't mean it to be that way, and I would never 12 do that, and I know you didn't mean it in a sense 13 that I am taking it, so please forgive me if I 14 misinterpret your statement. 15 MR. BERGER: In the field of voting 16 rights, every white lawyer who litigates voting 17 rights hears this numerous times -- 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I didn't hear 19 you. 20 MR. BERGER: I am used to hearing 21 this. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: But I would only 23 say to you, I know that you didn't mean it in the 24 way I interpret it -- 25 MR. BERGER: The way in interpret it Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 293 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 is not the way it was meant. 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: The only thing I 4 am going to say is, Council Member Marshall, you 5 have a question? 6 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Yes. 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: There are 9 two counties in the City of New York that are not 10 covered by voting rights. One of them is Queens from 11 which I come. 12 In spite of the Voting Rights Act, we 13 were able to get minority seats in Queens. We have 14 one Councilman and one State Assemblyman. We sat in 15 that court, just two of us, myself and Andrew 16 Jenkins, who was the Assemblyperson. We walked out 17 of there with four Assembly seats, one State Senate 18 seat and one congressional seat. 19 The Voting Rights Act is right now 20 very, very conservative, and has gotten more and 21 more conservative. Nydia Velasquez enjoyed great 22 pain because now the Voting Rights Act is moving 23 away, and I think it is Section 5, moving away from 24 its original cause, which was more minority 25 representation under the Voting Rights Act. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 294 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 So, it is not really a panacea 3 anymore than it was, all right? 4 MR. BERGER: It is very up in the air. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: That's 6 right, exactly. 7 MR. BERGER: That's in the litigation 8 in the courts. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Well, some 10 of it is already in place, I understand. 11 I follow it because it means a lot. 12 MR. BERGER: The districting 13 commission next year is going to have to speak in 14 somewhat different tones -- 15 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Exactly. 16 MR. BERGER: -- Than we did ten years 17 ago when we created your district and Una Clarke's 18 district and several other's district. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Well, I am 20 not talking about that year. I am talking about 21 1982. And by the way, in 1981 the City Council 22 elections were put in obeyance because they weren't 23 ready. 24 MR. BERGER: It's one of the blots on 25 our record, yes. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 295 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: My 3 institutional memory goes way back and I have seen 4 lots of things happen. If we are going to have 5 indeed 20 seats that will be vacant, we have 6 existing now 15 members, and this voting rights, 7 when term limits was implemented, we were very 8 worried that we wouldn't have anybody here. 9 But 15 members in the natural process 10 moved out. 15 members left us. Now if 20 more seats 11 are opened, then why do we need to have term limits? 12 Term limits is done by pulling that lever. It has 13 been proven here in this Council. 14 Our concern here is, what good does 15 it do to have a body where you have good 16 representation across the board, if that body does 17 not have power, if that body comes in disheveled and 18 struggling to get hold of itself, that is the 19 concern. It is not the intelligence of the members. 20 I am assuming that we are going to get dynamite 21 people running and winning for these seats, and I 22 see some of them out there and I know that they can 23 do a good job, but they are going to walk in with a 24 handicap. We don't want them to have that handicap. 25 When I came in, this is my last Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 296 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 comment, when I came into this body, it was the 3 expanded Council. Mind you, I was a seasoned 4 legislator from the state, okay? 5 MR. BERGER: You were, yes. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Actually 7 there were 15 of us, actually it turned out to be 8 more because many people use that as a benchmark to 9 leave, et cetera. 10 A number of us walked in here, 21 all 11 together, but we were cushioned. We had an existing 12 body. And many a times I sat, right now I am sitting 13 next to a Councilman who has just very recently been 14 elected, and believe me, I help him, I talk to him, 15 because I was in that position one time myself, and 16 there was a body here. 17 Now, it is not that we don't feel 18 change is necessary. We have made many changes. And 19 if we stay around a little longer we will make even 20 more changes, but nonetheless, there was a body so 21 that the government continued to move. 22 I am concerned that the next Mayor 23 will not be a Mayor, the next Mayor will be an 24 emperor. When they did away with the Board of 25 Estimate, they gave a lot of power to the Mayor. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 297 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 That one man has as much power as the whole City 3 Council, and that is my concern, that is what the 4 new Council will be faced with. 5 MR. BERGER: Council Member Marshall, 6 may I just respond briefly? 7 First of all, there are some who 8 would argue that the turnover over the last few 9 years on the Council has largely resulted from the 10 awareness of some Council members, that they were 11 going to have to leave under term limits. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Tell me one 13 case. Tell me one case. 14 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. 15 Excuse me. 16 MR. BERGER: The gentleman you were 17 just referring to, Rivera. 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. 19 MR. BERGER: Tom Duane leaving and 20 being replaced. There are several who left because 21 of term limits coming. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. Tom 23 Duane left because he knew, of course, term limits 24 was coming, that's quite true. There was an 25 opportunity and he took it and he left. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 298 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MR. BERGER: Right. 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: That was one 4 person. The others that left left for different 5 reasons and that is their right. 6 Susan Stetzer, and thank you so much 7 for your testimony. 8 MR. BERGER: Madam Chairman. 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Susan Stetzer. 10 MR. BERGER: Something about Queens 11 that is very important. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Susan Stetzer. 13 Susan Stetzer is our next witness, 14 please. 15 We would like to finish. 16 MR. BERGER: The Justice Department 17 reviewed your -- 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Susan Stetzer. 19 MR. BERGER: -- And you know it. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Susan Stetzer is 21 our next witness. 22 Thank you very much. 23 Susan Stetzer is our next witness, 24 and thank you. 25 MS. STETZER: Thank you. My name is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 299 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Susan Stetzer, and I am here today because neither 3 the press, nor any of the good government 4 organizations have been giving voters such as myself 5 a voice. 6 You would never know that there are 7 many of us out here who have been very concerned 8 about term limits, but because we are not organized 9 and we don't have any paid staff, we are not 10 visible. 11 I am in favor of Intro. 880 because I 12 am afraid of the consequences we have in almost 13 complete turnover in City Council, and also because 14 I want to keep my right to vote for the candidate of 15 my choice. I do feel this right will be violated by 16 term limits. 17 My criticism of this legislation is 18 that it is so late. 19 There is no question that we have a 20 problem, no matter which direction we take, but I 21 hope the City Council has the courage to follow 22 through with this legislation. 23 I am not going to repeat all of the 24 reasons and statistics that you heard earlier on why 25 to support this legislation, and how Campaign Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 300 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Finance Reform has changed the circumstances under 3 which the referendum was voted for, but I would ask 4 that you go up to your constituents and let them 5 know this information, such as the historical 6 precedence in New York, and how few people actually 7 voted for the referendum, and how it passed by 8 voters in neighborhoods that are not particularly 9 representative of the City as a whole. 10 As also not mentioned, any talk about 11 how Council members in their second lame duck terms 12 are not as accountable to their constituents. 13 Many people I talked to think a 14 referendum should not be overturned, and that we 15 need to let the City, even know they are against 16 term limits, and that we need to let the City reach 17 a crisis so that voters will understand why term 18 limits must be repealed. And I want to urge you not 19 to let this happen. 20 Please make it your job to reach out 21 to your constituents and educate them about City 22 Council responsibilities and why this City would be 23 in trouble next year if we lose the majority of the 24 members. 25 Voters need to take responsibility Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 301 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 for keeping and rejecting elected officials. I will 3 be disenfranchised if I am not allowed to vote for 4 the candidate I think is best for the office. I will 5 also be disenfranchised if I cannot hold an elected 6 official accountable by voting him or her out of 7 office and by doing this also send the message to 8 other elected officials. 9 I urge the City Council members to 10 take the risk of passing this legislation and to 11 meet with your constituents and explain this issue 12 so that we don't have a third referendum on this. 13 And I would like to say that when the last two 14 referendums were voted for, I remember being 15 extremely conflicted, I don't remember hearing any 16 debate on the issue, I never -- there was no forums 17 I had a chance to speak in. I remember being very 18 conflicted and hearing soundbites and really just 19 being totally at a loss at how to vote this. I think 20 I understand now the consequences, but at the last 21 two referendums I certainly didn't. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you very 23 much for your testimony, and thank you all for your 24 patience and waiting. 25 Stacie Rumenap. Thank you very much Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 302 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 for waiting for such a long time. 3 Please commence. Identify yourself by 4 name, title and organization. 5 MS. RUMENAP: My name is Stacie 6 Rumenap. I am Deputy Director for U.S. Term Limits, 7 which is a national non-profit issue advocacy 8 organization, based in Washington, D.C., not here in 9 New York. 10 Across the country term limits have 11 ushered in new law-makers with fresh ideas, by also 12 creating tremendous opportunities for women and 13 minorities. 14 Politicians frequently resist term 15 limits, as is the case in New York City. Yet, when 16 passed, they change the way elected officials work 17 and who runs for office. 18 From New York to California and from 19 Florida to Alaska, term limits are the law in 20 roughly 3,000 cities effecting more than 17,000 21 politicians and literally tens of millions of 22 people. Eight of the ten most popular cities have 23 term limits. Of the largest 100 cities, about half 24 of those have municipal term limits. And the average 25 percentage of the vote of local term limits measures Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 303 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 is 70 percent, even higher than the national and 3 statewide averages of 65 percent. 4 These municipal limits are changing 5 the political culture of our country and paving the 6 way to real reform at State and national levels. 7 Across the country, as legislators 8 are faced with imminent unemployment, they are 9 trying to save their own jobs by overturning the 10 expressed will of the people. 11 Already at least 150 candidates have 12 emerged this early in your process here in New York 13 to seek seats on the City Council. And with all due 14 respect to the current Council members, 150 New 15 Yorkers are also very qualified to hold these seats. 16 Please just consider the facts. 17 According to exit polls, after New York City's local 18 term limits vote, and this was back in '93, term 19 limits were backed by both men and women. A clear 20 majority of African-American voters and other 21 minority groups also supported these term limits. We 22 see the same support in major cities across America. 23 After term limits went into effect in 24 Kansas City in 1991, minorities were returned to 25 every single seat previously held by a minority. The Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 304 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 number of women increased from three to five, and 3 not only was the first African-American Mayor 4 elected for the very first time in the City's 5 history, but upon his term limits the very first 6 woman was elected Mayor. 7 In New Orleans, the number of 8 challenges for City Council seats in the first 9 election after term limits were enacted quadrupled, 10 and three-fourths of those challengers were women 11 and minorities. 12 In a 1993 study on term limits in 13 Orange County, California, two professors found that 14 Council Members in cities without term limits were 15 slightly well less educated and that in city's with 16 term limits, there is much less of a partisan 17 imbalance than in cities without term limits. 18 At the state level, 19 legislatures 19 and 38 governors serve under term limits. The 20 effects have been remarkable. 21 More people are running for office, 22 giving voters more chances at the ballot box. More 23 women and minorities are serving in office. Term 24 limits have created more competitive elections, and 25 lobbyists and bureaucrats have lost power. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 305 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Take, for example, diversity in 3 California. Under term limits, business executives 4 outnumber attorneys, and California elected their 5 first Latino speaker of the House. In Michigan, a 6 record number of 17 African-Americans now serve in 7 the house behind an African-American Minority 8 Leader, the first ever elected African-American to 9 lead a political party in their legislature. 10 Also, in Michigan, average age in the 11 house has dipped by about a year and a half over the 12 last ten years. And more members have college 13 degrees than ever before. 14 In conclusion, term limits transform 15 the political culture from entrenched careers to 16 citizen representation. 17 But regardless of your beliefs on 18 term limits, the decision of repealing them 19 definitely isn't up to me, nor is it up to you. It 20 is up to the voters. There are serious legal 21 questions about this power play by the Council, but 22 there can be no questions about the morality of this 23 legislation. 24 It is wrong to trash the twice-stated 25 will of the people, flat wrong, and everyone here Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 306 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 knows it. 3 Thank you. 4 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you for 5 your testimony. It was very interesting. 6 Can you tell me, with these 7 remarkable results, the names of the elected 8 officials in Michigan who is the Majority Leader. 9 MS. RUMENAP: I didn't realize you 10 would ask me specific names. I can gladly get those 11 to you. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You don't have 13 any names -- you have no names of the elected 14 officials from Michigan that you can recall? 15 MS. RUMENAP: Personally I don't know 16 the names of the legislators in Michigan. 17 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. I was 18 asking because in your testimony you cite Michigan 19 as an example of the support and the number of 20 minorities that were increased. 21 I would think that all of this, with 22 the support of your organization, would be something 23 that you would want to be able to cite. 24 MS. RUMENAP: Well, those numbers are 25 taken straight from Michigan's Legislature, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 307 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 newspaper articles -- 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I am referring 4 to names. 5 MS. RUMENAP: Chairwoman, with all due 6 respect, our organization -- what I am here for is 7 to give you a national kind of view, overall view of 8 term limits. I don't know off the top of my head, I 9 am only human, every name of every legislator from 10 the City elected officials, that there are 3,000 11 just under term limits, of every elected member in 12 every state. I can't give you that. But I could 13 gladly give that to you. I could send that to you 14 tomorrow, if you would like, in writing. I can give 15 you the numbers, the numbers are accurate, they came 16 from the State, they came from newspaper articles, 17 and I apologize if you think I am unprepared by not 18 being able to name one name for you. 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. I 20 didn't ask you for all of that which you offered. I 21 just asked you for the information that you had 22 mentioned, and I thought it was very interesting and 23 that is why I ask for that. 24 Would you send us that, along with 25 the information from Kansas? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 308 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MS. RUMENAP: The names you would 3 like? Is that what you are looking for? 4 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Surely. 5 MS. RUMENAP: Oh, sure. I would be 6 happy to send that to you. You will have it 7 tomorrow. 8 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And names and 9 addresses, you know, because it would be very 10 interesting for those of us who are minority elected 11 officials to be able to communicate with this 12 elected officials because that is common courtesy in 13 a common practice. 14 MS. RUMENAP: I will gladly get that 15 to you. You will have it tomorrow. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, good. 17 And it seems to me that with this 18 kind of information, and what you have done, it is 19 certainly a remarkable study. And then you say that 20 you have also determined the educational level that 21 term limited Council members had as opposed to those 22 who are not term limits. 23 MS. RUMENAP: I am citing that from a 24 study from a couple of professors. 25 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Can you send us Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 309 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that information? 3 MS. RUMENAP: Sure. Definitely. 4 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And California, 5 that would be interesting too. The first Latino 6 Speaker of the House. 7 MS. RUMENAP: Yes. 8 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Of course, my 9 understanding was that she was not Latino, she was 10 married to a Latino, and because the population of 11 California had a large -- California has a large 12 Latino population, she then used her husband's name 13 in order to make sure that the Latino population 14 would identify with her name. 15 MS. RUMENAP: The way I got that 16 information is straight from the Caucus of Latino 17 Members in the California Legislature. 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I would never 19 deny the name if I were here, but I got mine from 20 the New York Times, and they don't know what is 21 going on either. 22 Council Member Harrison. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: Yes. While 24 you are sending information, and be good enough, 25 please, I would appreciate receiving -- here I am. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 310 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MS. RUMENAP: Oh, I am sorry. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: That's all 4 right. 5 You mentioned in your paragraph two 6 that there are roughly 3,000 cities and of the 7 largest 100, about half have municipal limits. 8 MS. RUMENAP: Yes. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: I would like 10 to have a list of the 3,000 cities. 11 MS. RUMENAP: It's right here. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: May we have 13 it then? Thank you. 14 Madam Chair, do you want the list? 15 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Yes. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: And the 17 second thing is, you refer down further, at the 18 State level 19 legislators and 38 Governors serve 19 under term limits? I would like that information as 20 well. 21 MS. RUMENAP: Sure. I can list them 22 for you, or I can just send them -- 23 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: However. 24 Just please send them to the Chair, okay? 25 MS. RUMENAP: Yes. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 311 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: Or Mr. 3 Damashek, our attorney. 4 MS. RUMENAP: Sure. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: Thank you. 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 7 Lopez. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: I have three 9 questions. 10 Number one, what I gather from your 11 testimony is that you believe that term limits is 12 the best medicine to increase the representation of 13 people of color and women in the different 14 legislation in the country. That is what I gather 15 from your testimony; that's correct? 16 MS. RUMENAP: That's correct. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Then term 18 limits will make that to happen as a matter of fact? 19 MS. RUMENAP: Term limits help create 20 open seats, and when there are open seats, you see 21 more people of more diverse backgrounds, more women, 22 more minorities, people who have generally been shut 23 out of the process would be able to come in and run 24 for seats. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Stop. Stop. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 312 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Stop. 3 The proposition that you are putting 4 in your testimony, you insisted step-by-step, as you 5 put your testimony, that every seat that got opened 6 because fulfilled by a woman or a minority member. 7 MS. RUMENAP: In one particular 8 instance. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: In the cases 10 that you cite here. 11 MS. RUMENAP: That's correct. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Every case that 13 you cite here insisted over and over again that 14 people of color get elected and women get elected. 15 Therefore term limits is good, because people of 16 color get elected and women get elected. 17 MS. RUMENAP: The point I am making 18 there, opponents to term limits will say, well, we 19 already have a significant amount of women, or maybe 20 minorities, or whatever the incidence may be in a 21 particular area, we don't want to lose those seats 22 because we have worked so hard to get a woman into 23 that office. 24 But what I was pointing out in my 25 testimony is -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 313 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: But that is not 3 what I am asking you. 4 MS. RUMENAP: -- In those instances 5 where those women and minorities have been 6 represented and have been elected, once they step 7 down, of course not, there is no automatic rule that 8 yes a woman or a minority will, but that is what we 9 are seeing because more people are running for 10 office, more women and more minorities are being 11 elected to those seats. It doesn't necessarily mean 12 you will lose the seat represented by that 13 particular person because of their race or their 14 gender. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: I just need to 16 get to the bottom of this. 17 Your implication in your testimony is 18 not that term limits will make a guarantee that 19 people of color and women will be elected. Is that 20 happened to be that when term limits got implemented 21 in these particular places, people of color and 22 women got elected, but it is not that this was a 23 guarantee. 24 MS. RUMENAP: The only guarantee I 25 know of are taxes and death. So, no, I can't Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 314 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 guarantee that. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: You are not 4 implying that, right? Therefore, if you are not 5 implying that, I am just trying to get to the bottom 6 of the following thing. 7 MS. RUMENAP: Okay. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: I can 9 extrapolate conclusions of why things happen. But 10 connect term limits, to say that due to term limits 11 women and minorities are getting elected in higher 12 numbers is a fallacy. To connect us to things is a 13 fallacy. There is not a document, there is not an 14 instrument that shows clearly that term limits make 15 that happen. And that is the point I am trying to 16 make, that your testimony tries to imply that people 17 of color and women will be elected as a result of 18 the implementation of term limits, and that is not 19 true. 20 MS. RUMENAP: That is one benefit of 21 term limits. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: That is not 23 true. 24 MS. RUMENAP: Because you get open 25 seats, and through those open seats more people of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 315 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 more diverse backgrounds are being elected to 3 office. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Fine. There is 5 not -- 6 MS. RUMENAP: Can I finish my 7 testimony? 8 There is a paper that I just 9 submitted, I am going to submit many other things. 10 When I came here today, I was told if you have some 11 remarks, bring them. If I had any idea that you 12 would have liked to have seen every study done, that 13 I know of, and I am sure there are many more -- 14 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: That's not -- 15 MS. RUMENAP: -- On why term limits 16 are good for women and minorities, I will be happy 17 to supply them to you. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: If you have the 19 studies that demonstrate such a thing, studies that 20 show undoubtedly that term limits undoubtedly 21 increase the representation of people of color, term 22 limits as a direct correlation relationship, term 23 limits create this automatically, if you have a 24 study that shows that, those studies should be 25 brought here. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 316 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MS. RUMENAP: I will be glad to send 3 them to you. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: You don't even 5 have to produce them. But to present here the 6 testimony implying instant waiting, guiding the idea 7 that term limits automatically create the election 8 of people of color and women, it is misleading and 9 it is not true. 10 MS. RUMENAP: If you look at states 11 where term limits have been in effect, before they 12 were in effect and now that they have gone into 13 effect, you are seeing more women and more 14 minorities being represented. 15 With everything else being equal, but 16 you are pooling open seats into those areas -- 17 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. 18 MS. RUMENAP: -- More diversity -- 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: I said to you 21 there are many ways to interpret the result of 22 behavior of people in particular areas. 23 I can tell you, for example, and I 24 can make an interpretation of what you just said 25 here. I can tell you, for example, that the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 317 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 population in a particular area, it was increasing, 3 and the increase in that population to be people of 4 color, and as a result of that increase, people of 5 color became elected. Not because term limits, it is 6 because the population increased to begin with. 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me, 8 Council Member. What we are going to do to resolve 9 this is simply this: We are going to ask you to send 10 us copies of all documents to the office of our 11 attorney. 12 Now, some of your members think this 13 is amusing. It is not amusing. It is unusual that 14 someone comes saying that they represent people who 15 are enlightened and who have increased voter 16 participation and representation, and, yet, they can 17 provide no information. 18 MS. RUMENAP: I just provided a study 19 -- 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Not you. 21 If you cannot, you know, for 22 instance, when you mentioned all of the minority 23 people who have been elevated to office through your 24 good work, we want to give you credit for that. We 25 would like to acknowledge to those elected officials Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 318 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that they owe their incumbency to your effort; would 3 you agree that that is something worthwhile? But I 4 think they were there before you got there, and that 5 they will be there after you leave -- 6 MS. RUMENAP: I am not saying -- 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: But I would like 8 to have the information because you deserve credit 9 for the work that you do, and you have 10 documentation, as you said. We did not tell you that 11 this is what we wanted. You introduced this fact, we 12 would like to see this information, and it is 13 helpful, because if these are newly elected elected 14 officials that have come into being as a result of 15 your work, we would like to know that. 16 So, if you will send that information 17 to us, we will happily share this with our 18 colleagues, and we would be appreciative, okay? 19 MS. RUMENAP: Okay. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 21 Marshall, you have a question. Now, please, let's be 22 clear: it is a question, we are not looking for a 23 dissertation, nor argumentation. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: I will try 25 not to disappoint you. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 319 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Every ten 4 years our country counts its population. Every ten 5 years we go through reapportionment. The Voting 6 Rights Act was established to bring minorities into 7 politics. That is what did it. 8 As a matter of fact, they did such a 9 good job, that you folks came up with term limits 10 because you said, okay, you can put minorities in 11 but we are going to weaken the process. 12 Under the Voting Rights Act, more 13 than half of the county has to be minority. 14 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. Let 15 me just put you back on this one. I understand what 16 you are doing. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Let me just 18 ask her the question. 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, just ask 20 her the question, because you have given the Voting 21 Right Act three times and she has been sitting there 22 all that time. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: All right. 24 This is paragraph one, two, three, four, five -- I 25 am sorry, I am a little emotional. One, two, three Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 320 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 -- but I don't apologize -- one, two, three, four, 3 five, six, -- the seventh paragraph, okay? You say 4 take, for example diversity in California. Well, my 5 darling, a man named Willie Brown was the Speaker of 6 the House in the Assembly, okay? And one of the main 7 reasons -- he's one that you early attacked, okay? 8 That was sort of the beginning of term limits 9 because you wanted to get rid of him. Thank God the 10 people were smart enough to at least put a Hispanic 11 in. 12 (Directed to the Chair) what is she 13 talking about here? What is she talking about when 14 she says diversity in California? 15 MS. RUMENAP: Diversity in California, 16 and what I referenced there, you know, I have three 17 minutes to give testimony, you know, you have to -- 18 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: Just answer 19 about California. 20 MS. RUMENAP: Okay. I can only give. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: This is your 22 testimony. 23 MS. RUMENAP: I can only write and 24 present so much in a three-minute span. 25 In California, for instance -- Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 321 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: If you knew 3 California, you would know who Willie Brown was. 4 Council Member Watkins. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Thank you, 6 Madam Chair. 7 Ms. Rumemap, the paragraph that has 8 to do with this study, finding that Council members 9 in cities without term limits was slightly less well 10 educated, et cetera, in acquiring all of this, did 11 you check into the educational backgrounds of the 51 12 current Council members in New York City? 13 MS. RUMENAP: I am not talking about 14 only New York, that is a general overview. And also, 15 you know, if I knew earlier that this was going to 16 be a problem -- 17 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: That is a yes 18 or no question, will you -- 19 MS. RUMENAP: No, I personally did not 20 check into the background. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Okay. 22 MS. RUMENAP: I am not even saying 23 that you have to have a college degree to represent 24 a particular area. You don't have to have any type 25 of education level, that is just a fact. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 322 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Hey. Hey. 3 MS. RUMENAP: Please don't point, and 4 please don't refer to me as "hey". I would not say 5 that is civil, civility. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER MARSHALL: You earn 7 that. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: I don't think 9 it is civil for you to keep talking over. I ask you 10 a question, you answer it. You are using my time, I 11 want to ask the next question. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 13 Watkins, Terry Bastone will be the next. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: I have one 15 more question I want to ask. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: And the 18 question is, are you aware of the fact -- 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me, 20 Council Member. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: -- That 22 without term limits the number of attorneys on the 23 New York City Council has significantly reduced and 24 they are no longer the majority; are you aware of 25 that? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 323 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MS. RUMENAP: That has nothing to do 3 with the issue. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Are you aware 5 of it? 6 MS. RUMENAP: Yes, I am. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER WATKINS: Good. Thank 8 you very much. 9 MS. RUMENAP: You are welcome. 10 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You had your 11 hand up for a question? 12 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Yes. 13 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, fine, but 14 this is the last question. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Is it Ms. 16 Rumemap? 17 MS. RUMENAP: Yes. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: You know, this 19 issue has lots of different layers of the argument. 20 I have kept quiet most of the day because most of 21 the arguments have been rehashed a number of times, 22 and I come to this issue thinking that since we are 23 given an oath of office to make things better, I 24 don't know that term limits the way it stands makes 25 things better, and, yet, I believe the toilets will Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 324 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 flush and the police will be on the streets even if 3 there is term limits, so, I don't know that it will 4 be better. 5 You cite California and I saw a 6 business report, I am not sure on which channel, 7 MSNBC or Fox or CNBC, one of them, the way they 8 talked to an industry analyst in California about 9 the situation with the power companies in 10 California, and the analysts who wasn't political 11 said that many of the problems that have arisen in 12 California have been ill thought out legislation by 13 term limited legislators running out the door, 14 compounded by ill thought out legislation by 15 legislators who are new that have resulted in not 16 the toilets flushing but the lights going out, and I 17 am just wondering in your group, since you are the 18 only person from a national group to testify today, 19 while I know you are very proud of the fact that 20 this is instituted in California by referendum, 21 where they have a very strong initiative in 22 referendum in the State, unlike New York where you 23 can't do it, that there are ill policy consequences; 24 have you looked at that? 25 Because sometimes we like to do Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 325 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 things, we pass laws, but sometimes we have to look 3 at them later, too, and say what were the effect and 4 maybe what we did wasn't so good some of the time, 5 and relook at them. 6 MS. RUMENAP: Here is how I see it. 7 People who are elected to serve in any office, in 8 any state, for a shorter period of time, not to say 9 that people who aren't serving under term limits are 10 not the same in certain regards. But the people who 11 are there for a short period of time, they go, they 12 have this fire to get done what they were elected to 13 do, knowing that they are only going to be there for 14 a short period of time, knowing that they have to 15 pass the best legislation that they can pass, 16 because they are going to be going back to their 17 districts where they are going to live, just where 18 they lived, four, six, eight, two years, whatever, 19 before they got elected to go wherever it was to 20 legislate. 21 In California, I was just waiting for 22 someone to blame the power crisis in California on 23 term limits. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: I was citing 25 someone else. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 326 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MS. RUMENAP: Right. 3 And I can't speak on the power 4 crisis, I am not an expert on utility election or 5 utility regulation in California. 6 However, what has been going on in 7 attempting to deregulate utility companies in 8 California has been going on much longer than before 9 term limits was ever enacted. 10 So, I don't think you can say that it 11 is fair to say that because you have new people 12 elected, it goes back to the argument people have 13 made earlier, you gain experience in all parts of 14 your life. I am gaining it being fairly young, and 15 will continue to gain it the rest of my life, 16 whether I serve in office, whether I serve where I 17 work now or where I go on to do something else. I 18 think the same can be said with teachers, with 19 doctors, with any education, or with any profession, 20 you gain experience from everything that goes on in 21 your life, and you take that private real world 22 experience and you apply it to government, and then 23 you take the best parts that you have learned while 24 you were in government and you apply it back to the 25 public service. I don't think because term limited Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 327 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 members are going to be out of session, that they 3 are just going to forget the issues that were 4 important to them while they were elected officials. 5 Of course not. 6 You go into public office because you 7 have ideas, whether you have been an activist, 8 whether it is new to you or for whatever reason, and 9 you go out having learned something from that 10 experience, and you take that, you either run on 11 higher office, you go back to your community and 12 continue your profession, you retire or whatever, 13 but it is not like just because you are not a 14 legislator, you are going to say, well, I don't care 15 about that school I wanted built in the district or 16 about our utility deregulation in California, you 17 are going to still work for the principles because 18 that is human nature, to help others and not just do 19 what you want to do to get elected. 20 I don't think people are trying to 21 make that opinion. Our organization definitely is 22 not making the opinion. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: I understand, 24 and I don't disagree with you on the substance, but 25 having worked at the federal, state and City level Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 328 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 now, knowing that people take their expertise in 3 those fields and work in those fields on policy 4 issues, just like I do on the environment here, that 5 the other members respect that expertise -- 6 MS. RUMENAP: Definitely. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: And just like 8 I don't go into the cockpit of a jetplane and say, 9 by the way, you have had your two years, now it is 10 my turn, that wouldn't be too safe. Nor would we do 11 that in nuclear power plants. 12 I mean, I think what this person was 13 saying, and, again, I am sorry, the casual TV 14 viewing was that new people and old people both want 15 to leave their mark, but sometimes just leaving your 16 mark isn't always the most public interest thing to 17 do, sometimes just leaving your mark, and someone 18 else has to clean up the mess later. 19 Thank you, Madam Chair. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you for 21 your testimony. 22 MS. RUMENAP: Thank you. 23 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And now, again, 24 Terry A. Bastone. 25 Now, I understand you applaud each Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 329 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 other, could you hold on to the applause for the 3 next one? Thank you. 4 Please identify yourself by name, 5 title and organization. 6 MS. BASTONE: My name is Terry 7 Bastone, I am the female Democratic District Leader 8 in the 81st Assembly District, in the Northwest 9 Bronx, and I am a Council candidate. And please 10 forgive me, I am battling a cold, and sitting there 11 so long I can no longer breathe. 12 Thank you, Chairwoman Pinkett, and 13 members of the Committee, for allowing me to testify 14 before you today. 15 I am here today to urge you to abide 16 by the wishes of the people of the City of New York 17 by defeating Intro. 880. 18 The City Council will do irreparable 19 damage to its standing as a legitimate 20 counterbalance to the Mayor by passing Intro. 880. 21 Many editorial writers and 22 columnists, academics and good government groups and 23 citizens share your opposition to term limits. 24 These same people, however, have 25 expressed an even greater opposition to the prospect Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 330 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that the Council may pass Intro. 880. 3 They feel, as I do, that the will of 4 the people must not be undone by this body. 5 We have seen the Council grow into a 6 strong legislative body. The leadership of this 7 Council, and all of you here today, can take 8 justifiable credit for the Council's 9 accomplishments. Your Safe City - Safe Street 10 legislation made New York safer. Your anti-smoking 11 legislation made New Yorkers healthier. Your 12 campaign finance reform made the promise of access 13 to government a reality. I would not be a candidate 14 for office today without this reform. 15 Passage of Intro. 880 will be a 16 horrible black mark on this institution and all of 17 you who have served the people of this City so well. 18 Will you be remembered for reducing crime, or 19 improving the health of our citizens in our 20 democracy? I am afraid the answer may be no. You 21 risk being remembered as the Council that turned its 22 back on the will of the people to save your jobs. It 23 is not a fair assessment, but it is the one that 24 will follow you, and it will plague those who follow 25 you as Council members. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 331 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Lacking respect and credibility, how 3 will the Council service a counterbalance to the 4 Mayor? How will the Council push progressive 5 ground-breaking legislation in the face of such 6 universal negativity on the part of the people, 7 press and opinion-makers? It will not? 8 I am interjecting a couple of 9 sentences here. 10 I agree with Councilman Fiala when he 11 said that most of the people do not understand what 12 two terms meant. Yes, it is true. But what we need 13 to do was look at the law the way it was written, 14 corrected and bring it back to them. 15 I urge you to defeat Intro. 880. This 16 bill may eliminate term limits, but it will also 17 eliminate the credibility that this Council has 18 worked so hard to gain. 19 Thank you. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: First of all -- 21 (Directed to the audience) excuse me, that was a 22 warning before. 23 I would like to thank you for your 24 patience and waiting so long to testify, and I 25 appreciate the message that you brought to us. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 332 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Thank you, again. 3 MS. BASTONE: Thank you for allowing 4 me. 5 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Hold your 6 applause. Thank you. 7 Now, I believe we have the Green 8 Party here; is that correct? Yes? Okay, would you 9 all come together up front. 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: There are about 11 eight of us. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Eight of you can 13 come around the table. Eight of you will crowd 14 around the table. 15 Okay, now, would you each, before you 16 speak, identify yourselves by name, organization, 17 individually, so that we may know who you are before 18 you speak, since we won't be able to do it that way, 19 okay? 20 MS. DISENHOUSE: My name is Masada 21 Disenhouse, First Vice Chair -- 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Do it a little 23 slower, please. 24 MS. DISENHOUSE: Sorry. My name is 25 Masada Disenhouse, I am First Vice Chair of the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 333 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Green Party of New York State. Until now I used to 3 be employed at CUNY, I am not sure I am at this 4 point. 5 MS. RIZZO: My name is Rossana Rizzo, 6 I am a native New Yorker and I am here to support 7 the Green Party. 8 MR. CHOU: Hi. My name is Evergreen 9 Chou, I am going to run for City Council in 10 Flushing, Queens, Council District 20. 11 MS. JO: My name is Dey Star Jo 12 (phonetic), from District 20. I am not running for 13 anything, just a citizen of the district, and part 14 of the Green Party, Wolf Clan of Cheroke. 15 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Give us your 16 name again. 17 MS. JO: Dey Star Jo. 18 MS. ZETT: My name is Lori Zett, I am 19 running for City Council in District 24. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You are whom? 21 Could you repeat that again, please. 22 MS. ZETT: My name is Lori Zett. I am 23 running for City Council in District 24. 24 MR. DOSCHER: Hi. I am Christian 25 Doscher. I am here to support the Green Party. I am Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 334 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 a native New Yorker. I was born in Manhattan, and 3 first and foremost, I consider myself what Lincoln 4 would call a people such as yourself as described 5 above your head, for the people, by the people, by 6 the people. 7 MR. KANN: Hi. My name is Jerry Kann. 8 I am a member of the Green Party, and I am a 9 candidate for the 22nd Council District. 10 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Which district. 11 MR. KANN: 22nd Council District. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, why don't 13 you pull your chair in a little so that -- fine, 14 thank you. 15 Okay, now, who will begin? 16 MS. DISENHOUSE: I will. 17 When I first came here this morning, 18 I wasn't sure that by the time I got to speak I 19 would have a lot to say that was new and hadn't been 20 said before. 21 However, over the course of the past 22 eight hours or so, I now do have a lot to say. 23 The first thing I would like to do is 24 respond to some of the things that were brought up 25 earlier. The first thing is something that was Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 335 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 brought up by Councilman Michels and Ed Wallace, 3 when they said that only 32 percent of voters 4 supported term limits. 5 I would like to know what percent of 6 voters supported most of you sitting here today. I 7 don't remember specific districts, but I did look at 8 the numbers for 1997, and most of the Council people 9 who were elected who were incumbents, came in with 10 about 20 or 30 percent of the people who voted for 11 Mayor in that election. 12 Now, probably only about 50 percent 13 of people who were eligible to vote voted for Mayor, 14 that would make you guys elected with about ten, 15 15 percent of the vote less than 32 that you are saying 16 is so bad, I don't see you questioning those votes. 17 The second thing I wanted to talk 18 about, and, again, on that note, I agree with you, 19 of course the Green Party, you are saying how bad it 20 is that people didn't come out to vote for it, how 21 bad it is that 32 percent is not representative of 22 the people. As Greens, of course, we do everything 23 we can to get people out to vote, to participate in 24 government, et cetera. But telling people that their 25 vote doesn't count, and trying to kill the most Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 336 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 vigorous election we are going to have in years is 3 not the way to tell people to get out there and 4 participate in government. It is just not going to 5 work. 6 I would also like to respond to all 7 the speakers who implied that the New Yorkers who 8 voted for term limits were stupid, that we are 9 zombies of Ron Lauder, or something like that, that 10 we are blinded by the money that was put into the 11 campaign for the voter - I resent that. Let me calm 12 down, I have been sitting here all day. Sorry. 13 You know, not that I think all of you 14 don't have a right to be here, but other people have 15 the right to be there, too, and other people are 16 smart and able to comprehend what term limits mean 17 for their lives. 18 I think the assumption that Council 19 people have repeated over and over again that people 20 are not able to make that decision for themselves is 21 ridiculous. 22 I also think that the claim that it 23 is only because Ron Lauder put the money into it is 24 ridiculous as well. 25 Clearly the Green Party does not Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 337 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 espouse most of the values of Mr. Lauder, we stand 3 mostly in opposition to him, that doesn't mean we 4 can't agree with him on certain things. 5 Also, when Ron Lauder ran for Mayor, 6 the people did not vote for him, no matter how much 7 money he put into the campaign. Therefore, you 8 cannot come to that conclusion. 9 And, thirdly, on that topic, it was 10 said by somebody before, I don't remember who it 11 was, Ron Lauder put this referendum on the ballot. 12 He didn't put that referendum on the ballot, 60,000 13 or 70,000 signatures of registered voters of New 14 York State put that referendum on the ballot. 15 And I spoke to Janine Kemm earlier, 16 and she said that they had another 60,000 or 70,000 17 that they didn't submit because they already had 18 enough. 19 However, having sat here all day, I 20 think the most compelling case to oppose Intro. 880 21 is the hearing that I sat through today. 22 I watched as the Chair gave her 23 opinions for about half the time, came close to 24 slandering Mr. Lauder. 25 I watched as Council Members Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 338 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 questioned witnesses that were friendly to them so 3 that they could hear over and over again those views 4 that they wanted to hear. 5 I watched the witnesses who were not 6 friendly to them shredded, patronized, you know, 7 told that they didn't know what they were talking 8 about, cut off in mid-sentence - it was ridiculous. 9 You know, as Greens we are here, we 10 have people running for Council, I am Vice Chair of 11 the party, we have been sitting here all day. All of 12 us are working people. You know, we all missed a 13 day's pay. It is ridiculous. 14 I would suggest that if you really 15 want to find out what people think, there has been 16 some question about what people think, that you hold 17 another public referendum about this, you fund it 18 with public money so that there is no question of 19 whether it is Ron Lauder's money speaking, the 20 people's voice is speaking. You set up hearings so 21 people can find out what this is all about and you 22 set them up at times when working people can get to 23 them, and not have to sit there for eight hours 24 while they watch you take apart the people who share 25 their views. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 339 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 I guess that is about it for me. 3 MS. RIZZO: Well, Masada pretty much 4 said it all. And once again, the Green Party doesn't 5 get any press coverage. 6 As a public debate, I would like to 7 address what Masada said about this being held 8 during the day when nobody who is your average 9 citizen can come and debate with you, and I think 10 that is important to be represented there. And you 11 do represent the people, and they should be given an 12 opportunity to come down here and speak with you, 13 because they do have voices. And I think where there 14 has been a lot of talk of facts and the only true 15 facts that I believe should concern us, are the fact 16 that two referenda were adopted by the public in 17 1993 and 1996 and they expressed a desire for term 18 limits. 19 And I do believe that as Council 20 people you would all have great success running in 21 the higher office, and there should be no reason why 22 you want to stay on the Board. And I don't think 23 that there would be -- you have been expressing a 24 lot of concern for new people being left to the 25 sharks, but I don't think that should be a concern. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 340 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 And after this past election, I am 3 going to keep this short, after this past election, 4 I think this would just be another great injustice 5 for the citizens of New York especially. 6 MR. CHOU: As I stated earlier, my 7 name is Evergreen. I am running for City Council in 8 Flushing. 9 You know, I just want to go over some 10 of the points that the Council member makes as to 11 why term limits is so bad, that the referendum is so 12 bad, of course, point number one being so few people 13 voted, so few people did come out to vote, and I 14 don't know if that is the case. Then how can you 15 make, you know, what Masada said, in some of your 16 own elections, and you have to challenge that. So, 17 what do they say, what is good for the goose is good 18 for the gander. You know, if your election -- if 19 some of your elections, that you were elected with 20 so few of the people, then there is something wrong 21 with the process and we can maybe perhaps address 22 the process for a bigger voter turnout, a faster way 23 to register voters, and include more people who 24 actually live in the district that can vote. 25 Another point that was brought out Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 341 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 was that somehow the government is going to topple. 3 Well, based on the assumption that the new people 4 are running that don't know what they are doing, or 5 they have some kind of subversive ideas as to why 6 they want to run for City Council and get in office, 7 and there was another point made that, well, we just 8 don't know what term limits is going to do. We just 9 don't know. Well, here is a chance to try. But if 10 you pass 880, we will never know what term limits is 11 going to do. 12 So, many of you asked for empirical 13 evidence, well, the best we have is a referendum, if 14 not, or some kind of a massive town hall meeting 15 that you are willing to use, the major corporate 16 media, to ask people what they really felt about 17 term limits. But here what I am seeing is just 18 individual Council members forming individual 19 opinions on term limits, and many of you very 20 heatedly against term limits. 21 Now, you are asking us, well, you 22 can't prove term limit works, but you can't prove to 23 us that term limits don't work. 24 Then the other thing is, when I voted 25 for term limits in '93, when I voted again for term Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 342 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 limits in '96, my feeling was, like many of the 3 Green Party, we felt that there was a choke-hold of 4 incumbent -- well, I am not going to use democratic 5 -- incumbent politicians have on their position. At 6 least that is why I voted for term limits, you know. 7 We felt that with their power, with their 8 connection, with their mailing list, with their 9 buddy buddy system, that, yes, it is great to say, 10 well, you know, if you don't like incumbents, you 11 could vote them out. But statistically, we can never 12 vote out incumbents. 13 I think Mr. Lauder, yes, he did spend 14 the money, but if its a good idea and he jumps on it 15 and doesn't make the idea bad, as you are trying to 16 imply. 17 You know, term limits has been 18 around, and if we took him to help bring it to the 19 front, I was very glad that he took it to the front. 20 And also, then the idea of a 21 disenfranchisement, for example, yesterday New York 22 1 had an interview, a roundtable discussion. I tried 23 to get on it, but they told me, well, you are in the 24 Green Party, there is not enough of you, we can't 25 include you in the City Council candidate Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 343 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 discussion. So, what ended up happening was six 3 democratic Council candidates sitting at a 4 roundtable, under the guise of City Council possible 5 candidates, and that is wrong. And also, again, look 6 now, all the press is gone, half the Council members 7 that were here that could have heard what the Green 8 Party said are gone. So, again, we are once again 9 being disenfranchised, so, therefore, I urge 10 strongly in support of term limits, that we ask that 11 you not repeal term limits. 12 Thank you. 13 MS. JO: Greetings from the back of 14 the bus. It seems like every time Green Party 15 members are included in something where we appear, 16 either we are, like he said yesterday not allowed to 17 appear, or it is at the very end when there is 18 nobody there to hear us, a bunch of empty seats, 19 empty chairs. This is one of the reasons why I do 20 see a connection between this and term limits. At 21 least this will get our foot in the door. 22 You know, people who are in major 23 parties around us are having trouble to get in, what 24 is the sake of people that, you know, we are just 25 pushed aside and kicked to the curb at every time we Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 344 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 look around. 3 I live in a district now in Queens, 4 and I lived in a district in Brooklyn where we had a 5 high minority group that is represented by my 6 minority person. Now, it's two different cases. 7 In one case it may be, I mean, you 8 never know there is times that there can be a very 9 beloved person who worked very hard and that is why 10 they are voted in again and again. At other times it 11 can be that people are so anxious to remove this 12 person, to get a whole bunch of minorities and they 13 cancel each other out during the primaries. So, the 14 person gets to stay in, the incumbent stays in on 15 and on. But this does not always mean that they are 16 on, because people want them there. 17 Sometimes it is true, but sometimes 18 it is not. And if we have the term limits, at least 19 it will be an open chance that other people will 20 have the opportunities to run, good incumbents can 21 always come back. We are not saying you are gone and 22 you can never come back. In four more years come 23 back, run again. If we are horrible, beat us. Take 24 the seat back. Show us that way that we are wrong. 25 That's all I have to say. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 345 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MS. ZETT: The difficulty of coming at 3 the end is that we are all tired and we are all 4 gone. 5 I went to the Green Party and I am 6 running because I am in an absolute panic about what 7 is happening in America. And I think we have been 8 speaking today as if we were in an island and none 9 of what is happening outside of this particular room 10 is affecting anybody, or it doesn't exist at all. 11 We are talking about the power of one 12 man's money, when we know the presidency has been 13 purchased. We know he was selected. We did not elect 14 him. And we are talking about this as if it was 15 normal. We are not looking at it at all, and we are 16 pretending that suddenly these term limits have 17 become so important. But it was in 1996 that it 18 happened, so how could they be so important now, 19 today, when four years went by and nobody cared? 20 What was done? Now it has to be done? What I am 21 afraid is what it is going to look like after this 22 catastrophe of an election that we have had is that 23 it is going to be more of the same, and the people 24 who don't vote because they say, well, why should I 25 bother, I am going to say why should I bother, and I Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 346 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 have to agree with them. That's all I have to say. 3 MR. KANN: Yes, look, this really is 4 unbelievable. I have to say that today we have had a 5 situation in which, I recall earlier on today 6 Council Member Fiala, I hope I am pronouncing his 7 name correctly, questioned one witness for about 20 8 or 25 minutes, had an enormous amount of time. There 9 was another situation in which Mr. Russianoff from 10 NYPIRG and Mr. Pasanen, were again basically 11 attacked by everybody on this board. You asked them 12 questions, you cut them off before they even had the 13 chance to get a couple of words out of their mouths. 14 You heard the yes or no that you got them to say, 15 and then you cut them off. You laughed at them, you 16 ridiculed them. But these two other guys who came, 17 which is Emery, and I forget the other man's name, 18 those guys had about an hour and a half, you treated 19 them like diplomats. I couldn't believe, because 20 they agreed basically with your proposition. 21 And Madam Chair, I have to say, I 22 would urge you to look again at Robert's rules of 23 order. The Chair is not supposed to be taking 24 five-minute breaks to make speeches in a partisan 25 issue. You are supposed to be objective. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 347 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Again, every body from the United 3 States Congress to any legislature in this country, 4 to every union is run by Robert's Rules of Order, 5 and it is a basic -- but apparently it doesn't work 6 here. 7 Again, I think if you folks were to 8 take this -- if this story gets out, and you know 9 what? It's going to because we are not going to shut 10 up about it, if this story gets out you are going to 11 be a laughing stock, and you deserve to be, frankly, 12 because this whole situation is unbelievable. 13 You expect us to believe four years 14 went by - oh, we couldn't talk about that issue, we 15 just figured, hoped it would go away. I don't know 16 what you were thinking, but then all of a sudden at 17 the beginning of an election you are all of a 18 sudden, the people, we are not for that all of a 19 sudden. 20 And I heard these two again, Emery 21 and the other gentleman, coming up with these 22 bizarre arguments. One argument was, oh, that there 23 is certain kinds of individual voters, the 24 individual voter, the person must have this holy 25 right to vote for the incumbent. That must be Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 348 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 protected above all. But the people, the individual 3 voters, like myself, who went in '93 and voted for 4 term limits, that individual voter is somehow a 5 different individual voter. That individual voter is 6 called irrational and arbitrary in the language of 7 Intro. 880, in the description of the bill. 8 Again, I really think if you put this 9 before the court of public opinion, you are going to 10 be laughed out of court. People are just going to 11 laugh you off the stage, because it is so obvious 12 that what you are trying to do is just put the 13 kabash on what is really a democratic movement. 14 MR. DOSCHER: Hi. I agree with 15 everything that was just said, so I am going to try 16 not to reiterate it. I have been taking notes for 17 ten hours, so bear with me. 18 As far as intelligence suggestions 19 go, I would like to support perspective action. I 20 would urge you not to be baited by lawyers, we want 21 to promote you to judges. You are not here to judge 22 today. I think that if you are right to change your 23 hat in this moment, speaking of moments, two votes, 24 '93 and '96, plus four or five years after, we are 25 talking about a span of almost ten years, that's a Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 349 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 long moment. If we are talking about an opinion that 3 has been held in the public. 4 A lot of this stuff is almost so 5 ridiculous for me to talk or speak about, because it 6 is going to get a little surreal, but often, you 7 know, when you throw -- after the majority of the 8 back and forth nature of everything today, some 9 truth I guess would seem surreal. 10 I feel like basically what is 11 happening is rather than following a democratic 12 model, the Council is following a corporate model. 13 Experienced I don't think is 14 necessarily good or bad, it's yours. You have your 15 experiences, take them with you after eight years or 16 four years, and do something great with them. 17 Also, just on a social level, I think 18 there is a real danger in politics now, there is a 19 real bleeding heart liberal appeal to people, and 20 the word minority is getting so smeared and thrown 21 around. One funny thing that struck me today that 22 someone said was, what do you mean a minority today, 23 a white person in New York City? I grew up in New 24 York City, I would often look around classes and I 25 would be the only white kid in the class. My Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 350 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 grandfather dug the ditches that the pipes are 3 running through the streets, and he was a postal 4 worker. So, this is my Irish poor minority sob 5 story, it sounds like exactly what it sounds like, 6 it is obvious. 7 So, obviously I support term limits, 8 I feel that if you search your heart and use the 9 intellect that has been exasperated today, it 10 shouldn't be hard to figure out. And if you want a 11 career in politics, which it seems like most of you 12 do, with the way discourse is changing in the 13 society there is the Internet. People are 14 communicating so quickly about things. Believe me, 15 this is not going to end here, and you are dealing 16 with a new -- Lincoln was a third-party president, 17 there is going to be another third party in this 18 nation, we need it. We needed it then. And the Green 19 Party is the new third party. So, good luck with 20 your decision as a jury today. 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: We would like to 22 thank you for your testimony. 23 MR. KANN: No questions? 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: No, I don't have 25 questions, I just have comments. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 351 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 I would like to thank you for your 3 testimony and tell you that everyone sitting here 4 has not made up its mind. There are people here who 5 came to listen, and we did listen. And when we 6 interrupted on both sides, it was because of the 7 fact that the testimony ran longer, it was hopefully 8 to end that dialogue. 9 The last thing I would like to say to 10 you is, sometimes things appear differently than you 11 may construe them. For instance, you mentioned the 12 Board of Elections, the cost, for instance, and our 13 assumption as to, I believe the first person 14 mentioned the cost and that we were accusing Mr. 15 Lauder falsely. We did not accuse Mr. Lauder. His 16 election report stated the cost. We did not say this 17 is what it cost him. The Board of Election's filings 18 said this is the amount of money that was spent by 19 Mr. Lauder. So, I think sometimes when you listened, 20 maybe you didn't hear everything that was said. 21 MR. KANN: I have been here all day, I 22 heard everything, let me tell you. 23 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I didn't 24 interrupt you. Let me just say this, too: whatever 25 happens, one of the things that came out of all of Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 352 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 our discussion was to tell you that the reason we 3 fight for the four for one was to make sure that any 4 candidate who wanted to run would not in any way 5 have that, lose that opportunity of having the $4 6 for one, to continue those benefits that any 7 candidate would have as an opportunity to assist in 8 their candidacy. 9 This legislation should not impact on 10 that decision. 11 I also am aware, and so are many of 12 the other Council Members, and concerned about what 13 will happen for those persons who intend to run. 14 It's not a question of we don't care. We do care. We 15 are concerned. We made a commitment to have a 16 hearing and we had that hearing. We had this hearing 17 and we are going to continue, and I want to thank 18 you for your cooperation. 19 Council Member Lopez wants to ask a 20 question. I am only going to ask this of my 21 colleagues: there are still people who wish to 22 testify, if I may ask that your question be brief, 23 and the answers, or the responses be very brief? 24 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Yes, these are 25 questions that are about yes or no. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 353 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Let me just say 3 this. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Yes. 5 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: While you 6 question the fact that the length of time that you 7 sat here there were people who sat as long as you, 8 and they sat for the purpose of being heard and 9 asking questions, and part of the interruption was 10 to say, well, we have to open the floor for others 11 to speak. 12 Please, Council Member Lopez -- 13 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Yes, just two 14 questions -- 15 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And then Council 16 Member Fiala is after you. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: I would like to 18 know from each one of you if you oppose term limits 19 or you support term limits? 20 MR. KANN: In a perfect world I 21 suppose it would not be a good thing. But this 22 didn't come out of a vacuum -- 23 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: No, no, no, sir 24 -- 25 MR. KANN: I am answering your Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 354 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 question. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: I am asking you 4 -- 5 MR. KANN: I am answering your 6 question. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: No, you are 8 not. You are not. 9 MR. KANN: And in a perfect world 10 maybe it would be, but the fact of the matter is, 11 this didn't come out of the clear blue sky. 12 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Sir, you are 13 not. 14 MR. KANN: It came because we had 98 15 percent incumbency -- 16 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: I don't care 17 for your answer. I am asking you very specifically 18 -- 19 MR. KANN: You don't care for it? 20 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Do you support, 21 or not, term limits? Do you or not? 22 MR. KANN: Yes, I support the term 23 limits, that were passed twice by the people of this 24 City. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Okay. I hear Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 355 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 you. 3 The next candidate, I want to know if 4 you support term limits or not? 5 MR. CHOU: I want to say I support 6 term limits, and if elected, when my two term limits 7 comes up, I will gladly step aside and follow the 8 will of the people. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Okay, thank 10 you. 11 MS. ZETT: Since people don't know 12 when to get out, I support term limits. 13 MS. DISENHOUSE: I just wanted to say, 14 I just wanted to answer that by saying also that 15 there are Greens on both sides of this issue. 16 In Washington, D.C. the same exact 17 thing is happening, the Council is trying to 18 overturn referendums of passed term limits and there 19 the Greens have specifically said that they oppose 20 term limits but they are going to fight the overturn 21 of the referendum, whereas here in New York the 22 feeling seems to be more on the side that we both 23 support term limits and oppose this -- 24 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: But I don't 25 want to know the position of the Greens, I just want Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 356 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 to know, the people who are running right here and 3 now, I want to know, if you, as a candidate, support 4 or are against term limits. That is my question. 5 MR. KANN: Yes. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Then that's it? 7 The other people? She answered, I hear her. The lady 8 -- 9 MS. RIZZO: I am not a candidate. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Oh, you are not 11 running, okay. 12 My last question is, the lady who 13 testified before and implying in her entire 14 testimony that term limits guarantee the election of 15 people of color and women, is something that you 16 share, that you believe that to be the case? 17 MR. CHOU: Well, my belief that I 18 stated, you know, that it's an experiment, term 19 limits is something we are batting around, if you 20 block it, you will never know. If you don't block 21 it, we might get to know. Because, look, we are 22 going to have our election, there is going to be 23 term limits and we can count the numbers and that 24 will answer your question. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: Okay, thank Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 357 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 you. 3 MS. DISENHOUSE: Can I answer that as 4 well? 5 COUNCIL MEMBER LOPEZ: It is 6 sufficient. I just wanted to hear from one of you in 7 regard to that. 8 Thank you. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Thank you, 10 Madam Chair. 11 I have a question for you all. My 12 name was invoked, that I took 20 minutes with one 13 witness. I asked the Chair to indulge me because I 14 am one of the undecideds, and the question that I 15 asked were germane to my own though process, and I 16 am going to ask the same questions of you, because I 17 remain undecided. 18 You know, this is a sad state of 19 affairs in this country when, do you know what term 20 limits is? Term limits is an expression of contempt 21 for the very government that is supposed to be 22 deliberative and representative of you. And that is 23 why I said, my fear is that we start on a slippery 24 slope, and once you reach a certain point, you can't 25 get back. So, I am having a difficult time balancing Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 358 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 those competing interests that I spoke of earlier. 3 But here is the question to each of 4 you. One of you, or two of you made reference to the 5 notion that this was needed because it would open up 6 an opportunity for others to run. 7 In light of the following, in light 8 of the fact that 20 of the 35 members who are going 9 to be thrown out this December 31st will not run 10 again if given the opportunity, and in light of the 11 fact of the 16 members who have the opportunity if 12 we get reelected to come back, will have no more 13 than four years experience each. Would you not have 14 achieved opening up that process? 15 MS. DISENHOUSE: Well, that would only 16 resolve the problem for this year, first of all. I 17 mean, this year I think we are going to have a lot 18 of people running just because they thought there 19 were going to be term limits, whether or not we 20 actually end of having them. 21 You must know that -- I mean, several 22 times people have made reference to the fact that, 23 well, if the voters don't like us, they can vote us 24 out. That is not true. 25 It is almost impossible for somebody Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 359 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 who is a party hack to get on the ballot line and 3 actually have a chance of winning, let alone an 4 insurgent democrat, let alone a Green Party member. 5 You know, we have almost no chance. 6 The only chance we have normally is either when 7 somebody dies in office or gets elected to a higher 8 office and vacates that seat. And I think most of 9 the other people here who are candidates are running 10 for that reason. This represents the only real 11 chance they have ever had to actually possible 12 compete for the seat. And we would like to see -- 13 also, I would not support term limits in a perfect 14 world, in a world where I thought people had a real 15 shot at winning because of who they were and not who 16 they gave money to or how many years they served as 17 a district leader. 18 I think in that situation I would 19 oppose term limits. I support term limits because we 20 have tried to vote you out. I mean, I don't mean you 21 personally, I respect some of your work 22 tremendously, but we have tried to vote you out and 23 we haven't succeeded. I think the public resorted to 24 term limits as a last chance opportunity. 25 MR. KANN: The other thing, too, is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 360 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that you referenced, you know, a situation, oh, some 3 will not be running and others will, and this whole 4 situation has developed since '96. I mean, it is 5 almost like you would all like us to go back in time 6 and say, oh, gosh, if this is the way it works out, 7 don't you think we don't really need this? People 8 didn't make the decision back in '93 on that basis. 9 They said the people don't seem to want to share 10 power at all, and that is why they voted for it. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER FIALA: Thank you. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 13 Hilda Hernandez. Would you repeat 14 your name, the agency you are from and title and 15 organization? 16 MS. HERNANDEZ: My name is Hilda 17 Hernandez. I am the founding president of the 18 Robert F. Kennedy Community Development 19 Organization. I am also an 18th City Council 20 District candidate. I have coordinated the district 21 for the 76th Assembly. I usually do the job of a 22 district leader. I wear various caps. I am a former, 23 once a teacher always a teacher, early childhood 24 teacher, a social worker, and my organization 25 comprises senior citizens, youths and usually Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 361 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 environmental issues. 3 At the present time I am undecided 4 regarding term limits. I have experience in the City 5 Council. I also worked for the City Council. I 6 commend all of you. I think you are doing, and you 7 have done, a very good job. And I am just totally 8 undecided. 9 I really think we have a problem on 10 both sides, the City Council and for the public. 11 The problem we have, and it is a 12 shame Una Clarke is not here, I went to the same 13 school she went to, we have not really educated or 14 empowered the community, and I think this is why we 15 do have this problem, many people voted, whoever 16 someone else said, many people did not understand. I 17 am not judging every district, but as a coordinator 18 of the district, and collecting petitions for many 19 years and getting people in the ballot with 3,000 20 signatures, or 4,000 signatures, I do have that 21 experience and people will ask. 22 At the present time I think it is a 23 splendid idea. I believe it was Councilman Stephan 24 (sic), you suggested a splendid idea regarding 25 having a town hall meeting. I don't really think Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 362 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that costs a lot of money, but I do think that it is 3 for respect of the people that live in the 4 community, and that is what I have to say. 5 Thank you. 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 7 Carolyn Younger. 8 MS. YOUNGER: After sitting for so 9 many hours, let me just give honor to our Lord and 10 say to Jesus Christ, so that we will have a presence 11 of togetherness in this room. 12 Now I would like to introduce myself, 13 and I also have something to pass out so that you 14 would really know who I am. 15 I am Carolyn Younger. I am running 16 for the Council seat in the 29th Council District 17 where Tom White is now the Council Member. 18 My background is in human services. I 19 delivered human services to Queens for 22 years come 20 this last Sunday in August. And a good job it must 21 have been indeed, because the City used my services 22 for 22 years, and I was never funded. 23 It would be good some time to think 24 of an excuse why they didn't but that would be too 25 belittling to me, because I know I am the inheritor Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 363 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 of Harriet Tubman's Force, and Harriet taught us, if 3 you want to be free of anything, keep on going, and 4 that is what I did for 22 years. 5 And I want to say to the Council, 6 after sitting and listening to your views of why you 7 would want term limits overturned, would you just 8 give me an answer, after 22 years of delivering 9 services, I mean where Washington chose the black 10 family to deliver all donated foods and when the 11 foods were delivered they said to us, and these were 12 the words verbatim: The money did not trickle down 13 to you, but because we stand for something and won't 14 fall for anything, we continue to move on. 15 I just want the Council to reply, and 16 also be in support of bringing the black family to 17 the table. Asking those particular districts where 18 we work, why wasn't the black family funded? And 19 this is why I am running for the Council seat, so 20 that we might have representation in the community 21 where people are actually delivering services. 22 Madam Chair, thank you for being in 23 your house. One thing I can always say, a lot of 24 people disagree with things, but one thing I 25 learned, although you may not like the rules of a Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 364 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 house, the boss is the boss, because in my house, 3 you will abide. 4 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you so 5 much. 6 I would only say this much, and I 7 think everyone has to learn this. You learned that 8 if people were hungry and you wanted things in your 9 community, you had to organize people. 10 MS. YOUNGER: Yes. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You had to work 12 within that community. 13 MS. YOUNGER: Yes. 14 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You had to say 15 in your face and make them do it. 16 MS. YOUNGER: Yes. 17 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Now, the story I 18 like about Harriett Tubman, and I am sure you know 19 it, is one where she had a group of slaves in the 20 underground railroad, and it is not just something 21 that is applicable only to blacks, because I 22 understand that Moses faced the same problem with 23 the children of Israel when they were leaving Egypt. 24 And they said to her, they were frightened, it was 25 dark, and they said, why are we out here? I would Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 365 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 rather go back to the plantation, they won't bother 3 us. And they will get us and they will kill us and 4 this, that and the other. And she said, knowing how 5 people are, if they get you, they will know our 6 route, they will find us, and they will kill. And 7 she just reached in her pocket, pulled out the gun, 8 put it to his head and said you will be free or die. 9 MS. YOUNGER: Exactly. 10 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And you have to 11 make up your mind. Do you want to be free? 12 MS. YOUNGER: And that is what we did. 13 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. 14 MS. YOUNGER: And I want you to know 15 that the system used our services because we 16 delivered diligently to the people of every race, 17 creed and color. And I say again, to Madam Chairman, 18 please ask the Council why wasn't the black family 19 funded? 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Well, you have 21 to go and talk to your legislators and tell them 22 what it is you need, too. 23 MS. YOUNGER: This is what we did, 24 Madam Chair. 25 I wish Peter Vallone was here, who Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 366 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 got up already. 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Let me just make 4 the following suggestion to you. 5 MS. YOUNGER: Thank you. 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I would say to 7 you, and I believe the Queens Delegation will talk 8 to you and we will certainly call to their attention 9 the fact that there are concerns in the 29th, and 10 advise them to talk to you and find out what your 11 needs are and concerns and how they can assist you. 12 You will get that assistance but you have to talk to 13 them. 14 MS. YOUNGER: We have talked, Madam 15 Chair, for 22 years. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Don't tell me 17 what was. Don't tell me what was. 18 MS. YOUNGER: We are going for it. 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay? Go and 20 talk to them and then you will get help. And I am 21 sure you will get help and I will pass the word 22 along and you will be helped, I am sure of that. 23 MS. YOUNGER: Thank you so much. 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You are quite 25 welcome. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 367 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Thank you for being here. 3 George Martinez. 4 Han Young Lee. 5 Jasper Niblock. We called you three 6 times before now. 7 MR. NIBLOCK: Thank you, Madam Chair, 8 for seating me. And thanks to you, the members of 9 the Council, and the audience for your stamina 10 today. 11 My name is Jasper Niblock, and I am 12 the Director of Administration and Development at 13 Citizens' Union. My boss, Linda Davidoff, is 14 currently testifying before the Assembly in regards 15 to elections issues and wasn't able to be here. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Excuse me. Let 17 me do one thing, please, before. 18 How many others are waiting to 19 testify? Okay, would you move up to the front so 20 that I can see all of you? 21 Now, I will tell you one thing, I 22 understand the game, and I have seen the game plan 23 that has been played all day long, all of you guys 24 are from the same organization, right? 25 Which one are you from, the gentleman Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 368 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 here? 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The People's 4 Issue. 5 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: What is the name 6 of the organization? Say it slowly. 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The name of the 8 organization is The People's Issues. 9 George Tatevosyan? No. 10 Joe Cohen? 11 Christian Faucer.? 12 Elizabeth Shields? 13 Ira Jersey. Now, is there anyone 14 whose name I didn't call? Yes. What is your name? 15 MR. RICARDO: Rinaldo Ricardo. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Anyone else? 17 Okay, the deck is closed. 18 MR. NIBLOCK: Tell me when to go. 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, Mr. 20 Niblock. 21 MR. NIBLOCK: Yes. 22 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Would you 23 commence your testimony, please? You are going to 24 identify yourself by name, of course, again, and 25 title and organization. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 369 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MR. NIBLOCK: My name is Jasper 3 Niblock, I work for Citizens Union, and I am a voter 4 in the 35th Council District, and I am hoping most 5 of you already know who Citizens Union is, and you 6 may remember the Citizens Union opposed term limits 7 in 1993, and we were in favor of the referendum in 8 '96 to extend the terms to three terms and stagger 9 the terms, and we have been concerned with term 10 limits for a number of years. Our research and 11 educational affiliates, Citizens' Union Foundation, 12 which publishes the Searchlight of the City Council, 13 did a report in 1999 called The Big Turnover: Term 14 Limits in New York City, in which we examined the 15 problem that the cliff of term limits presented, and 16 the problem of also the lack of sort of the process 17 for training new Council Members so that they can 18 serve effectively if this did indeed occur. 19 We have noticed in our documentation 20 of the City Council via the Searchlight, that term 21 limits has had a strong impact in our opinion on the 22 Council, in terms of the less attention paid by 23 current Council members to their duties, probably 24 because of their concern about what they are going 25 to do after term limits. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 370 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 So, we feel the term limits weakens 3 the City Council, and certainly counteracts the 4 intention of the '89 Charter to create a stronger 5 Council which would counteract the Mayor, and we 6 think the term limits are harmful to the interests 7 of the citizens of this City. 8 Now, at the same time, we disagree 9 with the effort represented by Intro. 880 to 10 overturn the two referendums, and overturn term 11 limits coming into effect in this coming election. 12 I think the effort to change election 13 rules, and what we believe is the middle of the 14 campaign is unreasonable and I think the attempt, 15 which I believe is likely to fail, maybe I am wrong, 16 is going to be self-defeating, since it will further 17 increase cynicism about incumbents in the election 18 process. 19 And at the same time term limits will 20 have an impact beyond just the selection. Eleven 21 current members will be forced out in 2003, seven 22 more are going to be kicked out in 2005. Of the 35 23 newly elected Council Members, plus Joel Rivera, 24 which I think makes 36, will only be able to serve 25 into 2009. And as we stated in our testimony in Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 371 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 1996, which was made by Matt Leventhal at the time, 3 we believe that it takes several terms for a Council 4 member to learn how to use their office effectively, 5 and we are concern the Council may never gain its 6 footing as a forceful legislative body, if term 7 limits remain in effect. 8 So, our position is we would welcome 9 the Council's explorations of ways to reduce, if not 10 eliminate, the harmful impacts of term limits, such 11 as extending limits for three years, or creating 12 classes to stagger Council turnover. However, 13 changes should be implemented after this coming 14 election and should be approved by the voters. A 15 mid-course change is unfair to the current 16 candidates and to the public. Since term limits was 17 put in place by referendum, we also feel that it 18 should take a referendum to undo term limits. To do 19 otherwise would really flout the will of the voters. 20 I think if the Council were to spend 21 as much energy as they have, and you are sitting 22 through this long hearing, and demonstrate in other 23 ways on supporting fair elections, which means an 24 even stronger campaign finance system, eliminating 25 ballot access obstacles and creating more Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 372 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 trustworthy voter procedures so that challengers can 3 mount legitimate campaigns, then voters might feel 4 more trust in the Council and feel compelled to 5 allow a longer tenure. 6 So, we feel the overall goals of what 7 you are seeking are legitimate, but this is the 8 wrong way to go about it. 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you for 10 your testimony. I can respect your differing point 11 of view, and I can also understand how one might 12 consider the impact, especially given the time 13 involved, and the implication of the vote at this 14 particular time. 15 I do, however, ask the question, if 16 this were, of course, 1998 and '97, even '99, would 17 you have the same response to the Council if this 18 legislation was filed earlier? 19 MR. NIBLOCK: As I said, we feel that 20 because the term limits are put in place by a 21 referendum, it should take a referendum to undo 22 them. It does seem unseemly for the Council to 23 simply overturn a vote of the people, whether that 24 was now or earlier. 25 It seems to be particularly bad Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 373 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 timing now to do this with six months left before an 3 election, when you did have the opportunity to do it 4 since '96, the time of the last referendum. 5 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I mention '97, 6 which would be the year after '96, would you still 7 feel the same way? 8 MR. NIBLOCK: Yes, that would probably 9 be our position. I am not going to speculate on 10 circumstances not in existence. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. 12 The reason for that question, for 13 instance, in the British government, government 14 service is looked upon as a very distinct and high 15 honor, and in this country, government service seems 16 to be sort of like, well, if you can't do anything 17 else, you serve the government. 18 But why don't we say this is a very 19 important office, very important to have people whom 20 we expect so much from, and we give lip service to 21 how important government service, government 22 officials are, government employees are, and you 23 noted I said lip service, we do nothing to actually 24 make that a reality. So, if indeed, taking Council 25 Member Fiala as a good case, a person who is very Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 374 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 bright, very smart, comes into the Council, and he 3 says, you know, I like government, I want to make 4 this a career, and then someone says, hey, but you 5 have got to do it in six years and you are out. Or 6 someone like Council Member Sabini, very innovative, 7 creative - well, it is too bad that you liked 8 government as a career, you have a lot to offer but 9 good-bye, Mr. Sabini. 10 (Tape was stopped at this point to 11 change from the Council Chambers to the Committee 12 Room.) 13 MR. NIBLOCK:... We believe incumbents 14 should lose on occasion and they should be 15 challenged by strong candidates and that they should 16 not serve forever. 17 We also believe there are other 18 opportunities besides the Council for you to serve. 19 Now, to get more specific to your 20 question, I think that the issue is about the 21 institution, not about the particular members of the 22 Council at this present time, and that is one of the 23 reasons why, as I stated, would seek to work with 24 you to explore ways to change term limits after this 25 coming election. But what you are doing now is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 375 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 trying to implement the law that will go into effect 3 before this election so that some of you particular 4 Council Members, not just about the institution, the 5 particular members now have the opportunity to run 6 again, and that is what we are disagreeing with. You 7 are changing the election process in the middle of 8 the year. 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I didn't say 10 that I was working for that. I was asking a 11 question, the question has been asked repeatedly of 12 various individuals, because there are people on 13 both sides of this issue at this hearing. 14 MR. NIBLOCK: We fought very hard 15 against the referendum in '93 and we fought hard, in 16 favor of the referendum in '96, because of the very 17 reasons you outlined. There are dedicated members of 18 the Council who are qualified and we feel should be 19 able to serve and we were upset that we lost. We 20 lost. 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, I can 22 accept that. What I didn't accept was the fact that, 23 it seems to me there is an absence, and this is not 24 to say that this is a reason for not going ahead 25 with new people coming into the Council, that is not Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 376 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 the question. The question it seems to me is, how 3 does the Council improve itself? How does the 4 Council and the City of New York look at elected 5 officials, whether it is this body or any other 6 body, because I think, to be very honest, in two 7 years or four years, you are going to find that 8 there is a level of proficiency that is going to be 9 difficult to sustain for any Council Member, and you 10 are saying to people, come in, make a career for six 11 years, and, oh, by the say, good-bye, turn the 12 lights out as you go home. 13 And we are talking about governance 14 for the City of New York, and that is the level of 15 this dialogue between you and I at this moment. 16 Thank you for your thoughts. 17 MR. NIBLOCK: Let me just say one more 18 thing, if I may. 19 It is not like this is a difficult 20 decision. It is not like our Board of Directors is 21 universally unanimous in their decision to oppose 22 term limits, and I can tell you that part of the 23 internal debate, the performance of the City Council 24 is something we talk about, and we have been very 25 much in favor of having strong councilates capable Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 377 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 of counteracting the Mayor and providing strong 3 supervision over the City agencies, and we think 4 that the Council has done that to a great degree, 5 but perhaps hasn't done it as well as it could have. 6 And there is certainly a lot of feeling among our 7 members for the wish for a real new direction on the 8 part of the Council to really not -- to totally 9 forget that the Board of Estimate ever existed, and 10 to really take a more stronger and forceful role as 11 a Council. And overall, as an organization, we think 12 that term limits is not a good way to achieve that, 13 but that is still an area that we are concerned with 14 and we would like to work with the Council on ways 15 that it can improve itself. 16 One of the things we are trying to do 17 now is offer seminars to candidates to educate them 18 not just on what you do on the first day that you 19 show up, but also on how the powers of the Council 20 can be used to affect issues that are important to 21 their constituents. 22 So, this is an issue that we are very 23 concerned with, but, again, I don't see anything 24 wrong with implementing some of the changes to term 25 limits in a way that would involve the voters Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 378 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 through referendum or that would take effect after 3 their current election cycle. 4 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I thank you for 5 that recognition. 6 I had heard in talking to some who 7 are candidates that they are very impressed with the 8 classes, and they are getting a lot of good 9 information, so I think that is very important. 10 I raise it in the point one that I 11 think that people are on a -- not you, necessarily, 12 but there are those who are on, it seems to me, a 13 mindless journey, in that they don't realize that 14 government is continuous, and that it takes planning 15 and that there seems not to be an understanding that 16 the Council is an important agency within the City 17 of New York, it is an important legislative body, 18 and I think that good government groups, such as 19 yours, ought to also be involved in helping the 20 Council that will succeed this one to perhaps raise 21 the sights and the level of understanding what 22 government agencies and legislative bodies in New 23 York City can and should do. 24 And I think that when you deal a 25 lethal blow to a body, it doesn't just stop there Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 379 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 and that should be a concern for citizens union, for 3 all of the good government groups and for the people 4 of the City of New York. Because in essence, what 5 you have said to the people of the City go home, now 6 we will tell you how you will select your elected 7 officials, and that is a very, very important issue. 8 Thank you. 9 MR. NIBLOCK: Politics is hard work, 10 and we are going to work hard to make politics work. 11 Thank you. 12 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: We will vote 13 with you on that one. 14 Council Member Harrison. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: I have just 16 one question, if you don't mind. 17 In Citizens Union, and on your Boards 18 of Directors, and among your teachers who are 19 teaching the applicants for appointments, election, 20 do you have anybody at all who has ever served in 21 government? 22 MR. NIBLOCK: Many of our members of 23 our Board of Directors have served in government. 24 Bob Abrams is a member of Citizens' 25 Union Board and president of Citizens Union Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 380 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Foundation, Nat Leventhal, former Chair of Citizens' 3 Union, is still a Board member. We have a number of 4 members who have served in government agencies, et 5 cetera. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: Served in 7 government agencies is not the same as being the 8 elected officials. Bob Abrams has been. Is he the 9 only one who has been elected? 10 My point, which is not very subtle, 11 comes from my heart, because I have such little 12 patience for people who sit back, philosophize, 13 theorize, talk and never get their hands dirty in 14 the process. 15 So, I do believe there is a certain 16 loss, a certain element that the Citizens' Union is 17 incapable of transmitting to your student body the 18 elements that they can't share because they have 19 never had it. They don't know what the hell goes on. 20 And, so, I just wanted to find out whether I was 21 wrong or I was right, and my assumption is that this 22 is a group of people, among many such other groups 23 of people, who sit back and be very intellectual, 24 and talk theory about practice, and I just wanted to 25 get my objections on the record. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 381 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MR. NIBLOCK: I will be happy to 3 forward you a list of our Board of Directors with an 4 indication of their past experience. I am actually 5 not prepared to be quized on it right now, and I 6 will say that our Board is a deliberative body, like 7 yours, and we do talk a lot and discuss a lot. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: But there is 9 a difference between being a deliberative body and 10 being in politics and getting, taking your lumps, 11 rightly or wrongly, okay? 12 MR. NIBLOCK: Most of our members, be 13 it dues-paying members and Board of Directors, have 14 been involved in politics in some way. Not all of 15 them ran for elective office, but a lot of them have 16 been involved in other ways, such as being on 17 community planning boards, being on school boards, 18 running for district county leader, and one of the 19 major parties in this City. We have members who are 20 involved in politics. Every single year we go 21 through a process of evaluating candidates and 22 making endorsements. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: Yes, you do 24 do that. You do evaluate candidates. That only 25 deepens my position. So, I don't want to protract Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 382 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 the discussion, okay? You know where I am coming 3 from, okay? I have been evaluated by Citizens' 4 Union, okay? And I know some of the politics that 5 they have done in the evaluation, okay? 6 So, thank you very much. 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you very 8 much for your testimony and your time. 9 Would you send us the information 10 that you are going to send regarding your Board, and 11 send it to our counsel, Jay Damashek? 12 Thank you so very much. Thank you for 13 coming back. 14 Alithia D. Alleyne. Would you please 15 give your name and title? 16 MS. ALLEYNE: My name is Alithia D. 17 Alleyne, and I am a candidate for the 40th Council 18 District in Brooklyn, and I am very happy to see you 19 once again, Council Member Pinkett, and as many of 20 the other Council Members who are still here. 21 I think this has been the first test 22 for many of us candidates to see if this is the kind 23 of job that we really want. Because we have been 24 here from early this morning, and we are still here 25 now. So, I think we passed the first test. We have Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 383 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 shown our resolve and our commitment. 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: It can only 4 prove you have no place to go. 5 MS. ALLEYNE: Just to have our voices 6 heard and to go on record with our positions. 7 I have been here many times. I 8 actually worked here a couple of years ago, so, I 9 would be able to find the bathrooms, I know exactly 10 where they are and no one took the phones out. And I 11 said, okay, I have to go up there today because I 12 definitely want to go on record. I have been working 13 as a government specialist for the last five years, 14 and that means I was lobbying the City Council for 15 Expense budget funds and capital funds, I worked at 16 the Children's Museum, I worked at the Brooklyn 17 Museum of Art, and a lot of the projects that I 18 helped lobby for are about to be -- are actually 19 being built now, and I know a lot about how the 20 process works, I know about how, you know, how long 21 it takes and how you have to plan for outyears, and 22 I have been watching the Council, this Council has 23 been exceptional. I was there when you overrode the 24 Mayor's budget or you passed your own budget. I was 25 there celebrating with you. But today I am here Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 384 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 because I disagree with elements of what is 3 happening. 4 I am glad I was here today because I 5 got to get a lot more information from both sides, 6 and modified sort of my feelings on the topic. 7 When I speak to people in the 8 community, they say what is the Council trying to 9 do? Why are they trying to undermine the will of the 10 people? And these are the words they use. And I 11 understand that feeling. If you vote for something, 12 or you don't vote for it, the tallies are done, that 13 is what you have to live with. We have a president 14 that many of us didn't vote for, we have to live 15 with it. 16 And my feeling is what the Council is 17 doing now is what they call expost facto. And I am 18 not an attorney, but when I worked right up the 19 block in Wall Street, I had this legal dictionary, I 20 was in compliance for stock brokerage, and I 21 remember the word expost facto, after the fact. This 22 is indeed after the fact. And although my view has 23 been enlightened because of the things I have heard 24 today, I have to say that I disagree with the 25 process. Is term limits good, bad? That's debateful, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 385 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 of course, on both sides, but the process, having 3 the Council members override the referendums, 4 repealing term limits, makes me feel very 5 uncomfortable as a voter, as a voter who every 6 Election Day, either I get up very early to vote, or 7 I make sure I get home in time to vote. My father 8 drives all of the neighbors to the voting booth, he 9 goes back and forth five, six times, and I have been 10 working in the streets, sitting on Church Avenue, on 11 Flatbush Avenue, encouraging people to become 12 citizens, helping them fill out their forms, telling 13 them where to go to get their fingerprints done, and 14 registering people to vote, and this time, more than 15 any other time in history, people are starting to 16 wonder what the heck is going on. 17 Election results are supposed to be 18 one way, but they are not. They are starting to 19 believe there is someone tampering with the process. 20 And I think that what the Council is 21 doing is aiding and abetting that fear, that 22 feeling, that feeling, that uncomfortable feeling 23 that someone else is changing the rules, someone 24 else is changing the tally, someone else is fixing 25 -- the fix is in, that's the quote. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 386 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 So, I have heard some of the 3 arguments, like the Council is going to be in chaos, 4 gloom and doom, and I wanted to say that the chaos 5 that has been predicted probably has as much 6 validity as the Y2K and the big snow storm of 7 Monday. 8 A lot of us, as you heard today, have 9 a lot of experience. I certainly have a lot of 10 experience. I have been at the Council, I work at 11 the Council, and I know I will be a fantastic 12 Council member. So, if indeed there are problems 13 with the legislation, let's work to make it better 14 going out. My problem is with the process, and I 15 wanted to come here to say that today. 16 So, thank you very much for 17 listening. I appreciate it. 18 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 19 Hiram Monserrate. 20 MR. MONSERRATE: Madam Chair, and 21 Distinguished members of the Committee, I think it 22 is good evening at this point. We have been here a 23 few hours, quite a few hours, it's an important part 24 of democracy to have this open hearing. 25 I am a democratic district leader in Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 387 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 the 34th Assembly, which is in Corona, Jackson 3 Heights and Elmhurst. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: 5 Congratulations on your election. 6 MR. MONSERRATE: Thank you very much, 7 Council Member Harrison. 8 I am a former vice president of the 9 Latino Officers Association. I have been at this 10 body on several occasions to testify about police 11 policies and practices, along with 100 Blacks in Law 12 Enforcement and the Guardians, both of which 13 conferred with me this morning and yesterday 14 regarding this specific issue. 15 Now, I would like to say, and I am 16 not trying to be sarcastic, I wish that the Council 17 had taken this type of expedient action and resolve 18 on so many of the police issues that we outlined 19 that were important to the citizens of this City, 20 including communities of color. 21 So, I will say the following 22 regarding term limits. We all know the facts, we are 23 all rehashing what we have heard for the last ten, 24 11 hours, term limits is a reality. And as we sit 25 here today, term limits is the law of the land. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 388 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 As a former law enforcement officer, 3 I have a great respect for the law, and sometimes we 4 don't like the law. The Council Members might not 5 like the law either, but we have to obey it. That is 6 the structure we have in America. And I think that 7 the Council is clearly overstepping, not only -- 8 let's put legal arguments aside, because that will 9 be resolved in a court of law, I think there is a 10 moral issue here that people need to understand that 11 people are already apathetic to politics in 12 government, that is why they voted for term limits. 13 And you know what? I will accept an argument that 14 perhaps term limits is not a good thing. But you 15 don't make a bad thing worse by making people feel 16 more disenfranchised, more apathetic and put them in 17 a position where they throw up their hands and say 18 government is not on the level and it is definitely 19 not for the people. 20 It is unfortunate that there aren't 21 more Council Members here today to hear the voices 22 of discontent that are in this room. A lot of voters 23 and citizens here, candidates who have put their 24 force and their effort to become elected officials 25 also. I think there is a lack of respect. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 389 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 One of the things I would also like 3 to say regarding the vote, you know the referendum, 4 both of them, they weren't polls, these were votes. 5 If we wanted to know people's opinion, we could call 6 up Marist or Gallop and do a poll. These were 7 binding referendum that must be respected. 8 It doesn't matter whether Ron Lauder 9 bank rolled it. I am not a fan of Ron Lauder. I am a 10 political opposite to him. The reality is, this is 11 not about Ron Lauder, it is not about New Yorkers 12 for Term Limits, it is about you, the Council, 13 respecting the will of the voters, understanding it 14 and deal with it. 15 My last point is, why did we wait, 16 you. Members of the Council, three months before 17 petitioning and six months before the primary to 18 have an open hearing about this? Why wasn't this 19 discussed three years ago, in '97, as you pointed 20 out, Madam Chair, or in '94? Not in the Year 2001, 21 three months for petitioning. I think it shouldn't 22 be done, and I urge the members of the Council to 23 vote against the repeal. 24 Thank you very much. 25 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 390 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Council Member Sabini. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Thank you, 4 Madam Chair. 5 I just wanted to welcome a new 6 colleague, District Leader, Mr. Monserrate, to our 7 panel. Sorry it is a late hour, but, nonetheless, I 8 want to welcome you. As you know, I am a co-sponsor 9 of this bill and I have enjoyed this spirited 10 discussion and we have shared the discussion both in 11 private and public on this and the one thing that 12 Mrs. Harrison, myself and you will learn, is at 13 least District Leaders don't have term limits, you 14 don't have to worry about that yet. Except for the 15 voters. As you will learn when you have ousted an 16 incumbent. So, welcome to our panel. 17 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Welcome, indeed. 18 MR. MONSERRATE: Okay. 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you so 20 much for your testimony, and thanks for your status. 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Excuse me, do 22 you mind if I come up with him, since he is my ride? 23 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Of course. Don't 24 let your ride out of your site. 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I want to thank Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 391 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 you all for at least having an audience. I think it 3 takes a lot of dedication to stay here this long. I 4 was here since 9:00. I am sure this is not the first 5 hearing you have had, so, obviously you have a lot 6 of resilience and you have a lot of stamina to be 7 here, and I appreciate you staying. Normally when 8 there are so few people they put the lights out and 9 they move the chairs, and, you know, everybody come 10 back next time, and have a good day. And I applaud 11 you for sitting here and listening to our opinions 12 and how we feel. That is very important. 13 I think had this been going on in the 14 community, we wouldn't be here today. Having said 15 that, I had a big speech here I wanted to say and I 16 am going to push that to the side. 17 I stayed afterwards, not because I 18 want to give a speech, because I think there are 19 some things that need to be said that the Council 20 needs to understand so they understand what is going 21 on. 22 There is a very big movement of 23 people that are growing from the grassroots that are 24 tired of the same old gang, and those persons who go 25 against this movement will be squashed. Either you Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 392 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 are going to vote for this election, you are going 3 to vote for the next election. People will not 4 forget, as they have in the past. 5 And I think that what needs to be 6 done, me per se, I am not for term limits; however, 7 I think that people have a right to vote and make 8 decisions. I think you, as the Council, are enacted 9 to follow those decisions. I think that I would not 10 have a problem with it -- if you feel that the 11 people were not given true opportunity, and were not 12 given the full knowledge and understanding of what 13 and how this would affect everything. 14 I think it is your responsibility as 15 legislators to take it to the people and inform 16 them, let them know what is going on, let them know 17 how they are going to be affected, and bring that 18 point to them and let them make an educated decision 19 about what is going on. But I think if you do it at 20 this time, that you are going to taint the process. 21 I think the process will be tainted dearly. 22 I think that people will begin to 23 look at politics as we used to in the olden days, or 24 the Charles Daly in Chicago, they are going to begin 25 to think that it is self-serving, that even if you Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 393 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 are doing the right thing for the right reasons, the 3 message will not be heard properly, and you will 4 find that a referendum will come out again. And 5 people will vote for it, in spite of the fact they 6 think it is the wrong thing to do. 7 So, you are only temporarily delaying 8 what is inevitable. And the reason why people voted 9 for this isn't because they wanted to limit to 10 adductive people, as those of you who are those 11 persons. They didn't want to limit you to how much 12 you could do and how long you can do it. 13 They wanted to send a message that 14 those people who are not doing anything at all, are 15 not being allowed, they are not being afforded the 16 opportunity to get them out of office, and I think 17 that in order for you to properly repeal this law, 18 the only way people will not ask for another 19 referendum is that if you go after, if you make a 20 right for anybody who wants to run for election to 21 be part of the process, until you make them part of 22 the process, there will be referendum after 23 referendum after referendum. 24 People are not saying that you are 25 not doing a good job, but what they are saying is Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 394 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 that those persons who are not doing a good job, you 3 guys, the machinery, is protecting them. They are 4 knocking people off the ballots who run against 5 them. They are making it virtually impossible to get 6 on the ballot, and those are the things, those are 7 the reasons why I am not an opponent -- I am not a 8 person that is pro term limits. I voted in '93 for 9 it, I voted in '96 for it, because my neighborhood 10 in which I live in went from being one of the best 11 in the entire City to worst than Istanbul. And 12 something needs to be done about it. 13 And I think that as you start to open 14 up these hearings, as you said you are going to do, 15 you are going to find out that 90 percent of the 16 people are like me, against term limits, however, 17 there needs to be something in place that we really 18 could have a true voice and be part of the process. 19 If we are left out of the process, we will overturn 20 the process, and thank you all for listening to me. 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Councilwoman 22 Harrison. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: Just two 24 things. 25 First of all, where do you live? Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 395 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I live in the 3 Bronx. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: Where? 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: In the High 6 Bridge area of the Bronx, 16th Councilmanic 7 District. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: Okay. 9 Let me ask you a question as to 10 whether or not you have ever considered the question 11 about not being able to get people out of office who 12 are not producing a decent job. Have you ever 13 thought about the responsibilities of citizenship of 14 the people who do not go out to vote? Who do not 15 accept responsibility for making an effort to get 16 rid of the guy or the woman who is not doing her 17 job? 18 In other words, my feeling is, there 19 is an apathy out there which has become a lazy 20 attitude, as well as an apathetic attitude, which 21 results in the fact that people just simply lay back 22 and let somebody else carry the ball for them, and 23 then if somebody doesn't carry the ball the way they 24 want to see it carried, then they go for term 25 limits, right? They throw the bums out. They throw Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 396 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 out the baby with the bathwater. 3 I don't know how positive that is, I 4 don't know how effective that is really, you know, 5 in the longrun. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think that 7 people, when they become desperate, they alter 8 desperate measures. 9 I think that people, if you look when 10 Jessie Jackson ran for President, if you look when 11 Bill Clinton ran the last time, you see that there 12 was a large number of people who voted, so it is not 13 so much that they don't want to vote, I think they 14 need to have a choice, a choice that represents 15 them. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: And then 17 when people, in my district, for example, have had a 18 choice, every God damn time there is a primary 19 election or general election, I am on the streets 20 because I am being challenged by a number of people. 21 It is their business, I have no problem with it, I 22 enjoy being challenged -- but I forgot what I was 23 going to say, so forgive me. 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I think that 25 part of the problem is that if I am on the outside Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 397 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 and I want to get on the inside, I agree with you 3 that today the change is a lot of people do not 4 regard voting as important. 5 When I was a kid, my father used to 6 get to the polling site at 6:00 in the morning, and 7 the magic fact to him was that this was important, 8 he had a right to vote. And when I became old enough 9 to vote, my father called me up and said you have 10 got to go over there to the school and register. To 11 him it was important that you recognize the 12 importance of voting. 13 Now, maybe it was important to him 14 because he came from South Carolina, it would cost 15 you your life to try to register and vote. Those 16 people gave that up just to register and vote. Then 17 they gave a poll tax, and if you paid your poll tax 18 it didn't always mean that you would get the 19 opportunity to vote even with paying the poll tax. 20 But the point is, to my father, voting was 21 important. 22 So, he would go and vote at 6:00, and 23 then he would come back and wake up my mother, and 24 you better get over there before it gets too 25 crowded. Today it is not just the City Council that Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 398 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 doesn't have a large turnout, I wanted to say that 3 before when the Green Party was testifying. A 4 presidential election, 30 percent, 35 percent, the 5 lowest vote in history to elect the president, not 6 just Bush, any president, because people aren't 7 interested in voting. 8 And then, of course, at the time, 9 when my father said you have to go vote, no one ever 10 had to pay anyone to go and get you to vote. People 11 volunteered to go and ring your doorbell and knock 12 on the door to get you to vote. 13 I learned from a neighbor who lived 14 in my building, said, Mary, when we voted, let's 15 ring the doorbell, let's say Mrs. Applebird, and 16 let's ring the bell and say, Ms. Jones, did you vote 17 today? Did you vote yet? Did you vote? Nobody you 18 know in any building you ever lived in generally 19 does that today. 20 The other thing you should note is 21 that position on a ballot is so important. Council 22 Members are at the bottom of the ballot. So when 23 people are voting they say, oh, yeah, okay, oh, here 24 is the Governor, here is the Senator, here is the 25 Congressperson, here is the Senator, the Assemblyman Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 399 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 -- oh, gee, I have to go all the way down there for 3 the Council Member? I may or I may not vote. It 4 doesn't mean that they didn't -- you know, it is 5 just too much effort, because no one volunteers or 6 understands that people do not know and don't want 7 to take the time to know. 8 And the people who used to volunteer 9 aren't there. That's part of the problem. And it is 10 not just in your neighborhood, or my neighborhood, 11 it is in every neighborhood. 12 So, when you saw a picture in the 13 newspaper, where let's say when Nelson Mandella ran 14 for the first time, everyone was shocked. Here was 15 his picture with all of these people and this 16 tremendous line waiting to vote. Woman gives birth 17 on the line waiting to vote. Won't happen in 18 America, but that's what happens where people think 19 that government is important. 20 No one is going to come into your 21 community and just say, hey, I got a gift for you, I 22 want to do it for you. Council Members need your 23 help. Your Senator needs your help. Your 24 Congressperson needs your help. Your President needs 25 your help. And, so, when you talk about this Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 400 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 revolution that is going to come from the bottom, 3 oh, I believe that in a sense, because people have 4 to realize, too, that part of what is going to 5 happen and change things, some of it will have to 6 come from them as well. And you know there is no 7 excuse, there isn't any excuse. 8 My Great Grandmother cannot read or 9 write, but she knew enough if you didn't get there 10 by a certain hour, even if you said you were going 11 to pick her up and take her to church, you would 12 have to meet her on the road because she was walking 13 to get to where she wanted to go. 14 My great grandmother died in 1964. 15 She was 115 years old. And if she waited for 16 Access-A-Ride, she might not have made it. 17 So, the only thing I say is, 18 sometimes you have got to believe in yourself. You 19 have got to believe in yourself. 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I appreciate 21 the words of wisdom, and I will take that into heed. 22 And I will just say, I would like to say that, 23 obviously, again, people who don't have any other 24 means, will use whatever means they do have. 25 MR. MERCADO: Good evening, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 401 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Chairperson Pinkett, and the rest of the members who 3 are still here, I appreciate the fact that you are 4 staying here. 5 My name is Raynaldo Mercado. Although 6 I represent Anthony Curry as the Treasurer of his 7 Campaign Committee, I am going to put that to the 8 side because at this late hour, I think I don't want 9 to be political, I want to come from the heart right 10 now, because of what I have witnessed for the last 11 several hours. 12 One, I am a voter. Yes, I did vote 13 for term limits, not once, twice. My mother voted 14 for term limits, not once, but twice. In fact, my 15 mother won awards for never missing a vote, and 16 there are many people like that. Sometimes we make 17 generalities, and that is shameful because I always 18 hear this on C-SPAN, the American people. Who is the 19 American people? That's a generality. Are you 20 talking to me? I ain't saying nothing to you. Just 21 like a generality. Oh, the people don't know what 22 they are voting for. I knew what I was voting for. A 23 generality. 24 Well, you know what? The people that 25 will come into office won't know what they will be Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 402 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 doing, so they won't even know where the bathroom is 3 at? Come on. I mean, I know red herrings when I hear 4 them, and lately that's all I have been hearing is 5 nothing but red herrings. 6 I know some people are generally 7 concerned of the power structure that might be lost 8 because of term limits. I remember when it was the 9 Board of Estimate, the power was in a few hands. Now 10 it is in 51 hands, against one hand. We know this. 11 The thing is like this, I come from academic 12 politics, we had term limits. When you graduated, 13 you had to get out. In some schools you only could 14 run one time, and you served for two years. But when 15 you wanted to make change, you took the little bit 16 of time you had, you did as best you could, then you 17 went back doing what you had to do. 18 See, for some reason, when I used to 19 read the history books, I remembered that this whole 20 structure was about the people. And they say, you 21 know what? Why don't you come on down. First it was 22 in Philadelphia, New York and now it is in 23 Washington. Come on down for awhile. Was it four 24 years or eight years and then you can go back to 25 your farm, but help us structure this great country Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 403 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 of ours. 3 Right now it has become like a 4 profession. What we want is maybe where the general 5 person who is a contractor can come in and say you 6 know what? This is how we are going to do it for six 7 years, eight years or 11 years. Because as I 8 understand it, term limits mean different things for 9 different people. And you know what? I learned that 10 here today. You are right, some people don't know 11 what is going on because they are not informed, and 12 that is the bad process about government being a 13 citizen. If you don't know what is going on, how can 14 you be informed. But there are a lot of people who 15 voted and didn't vote, who chose not to vote. The 16 fact that they chose not to vote was a vote, if you 17 really think about it. Because they didn't care 18 which way it goes. And the apathy is like this, the 19 same people get in, why bother? Our republican and 20 democrat, basically with the big money, they are the 21 same type of person. They are not going to help me 22 out, they are just going to help out the rich guy, 23 and that's all I have to say from my heart. 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 25 MR. MERCADO: Thank you. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 404 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Please identify 3 yourself by name, title and organization. 4 MR. STRUHS: Okay. My name is William 5 Struhs. I have been supporting insurgence for about 6 25 years. As a matter of fact, I even was involved 7 in Julia Harrison's campaign years ago with the 8 "Whiz Kid," I am sure you know who he is. We call 9 him the Whiz Kid. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: We have a 11 lot of whiz kids. 12 MR. STRUHS: He is running for office 13 now, the historian in Queens. I haven't been in 14 contact with him for years. Povman's Chief of Staff. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: Oh, he is 16 not in my district. 17 MR. STRUHS: I know. But I mean, he is 18 the one who brought me over to help you. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: That was 20 very nice of him. 21 MR. STRUHS: Twelve years ago or 13 22 years ago. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: I will have 24 to thank him. 25 MR. STRUHS: No disrespect to anybody Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 405 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 here, but I think the real issue, the real issue and 3 how it is going to be articulated over time is the 4 political machines. People have a real problem with 5 political machines, and we talked about term limits, 6 whether it is good or bad. Most candidates are term 7 limited even before they get started by political 8 machines. 9 Now, in Queens we have political 10 machines for years. We had Matt Troy, before that 11 others, who was indicted. We had also the Donald 12 Mannis affair, he controlled Queens with an iron 13 fist. Nobody could run against Donald Mannis, any of 14 his candidates, for years. And most people come out 15 of machines, there was no other way to get into 16 power, but to become a City Councilperson, Assembly 17 or State Senate. 18 So, the people, in their ultimate 19 wisdom. Know that this is the major problem. It has 20 not been articulated. We still have a political 21 machine in Queens, and thanks to term limits, it's 22 cracking. 23 They are starting to crack because 24 there are so many candidates running, and we will 25 know that the key element for years and years was to Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 406 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 keep people off the ballots. That was the whole 3 deal. 4 So, you had these petition experts in 5 Queens, and no disrespect to anybody here, we call 6 them affectionately "the gang of four", Don Mantin, 7 Borrow, Sweeney and Reish. They control the borough 8 with an iron fist. And, of course, the republicans, 9 who we consider the "Three Stooges", Serph Maltese, 10 Ognibene and Tom Gallagher, who do anything that Tom 11 Mantin says, so long as they get their little cut. 12 So, this is what the people in 13 Queens, this is like say a grassroots feeling, okay? 14 It may not permeate up to the legislators, but the 15 fight will be over time, like now everybody is 16 getting geared up, we had a few people here today, 17 will be about political machines and how people 18 really get into office. 19 So, now I could answer Juanita 20 Watkins' question when she was saying why minorities 21 don't get into office. Well, I was involved in a 22 campaign with Al Frazier years ago, with Eddie 23 Abramson, okay? Al Frazier had no money, okay? We 24 ran a campaign for him. Now, Eddie Abramson lived 25 over in Howard Beach. He didn't move over there but Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 407 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 all of a sudden the Howard Beach incident came, it 3 became a main incident. He ran six black people 4 against each other, knocked Frazier out of the box 5 during the election. That's what happened, okay? 6 The county organization was 7 supporting Eddie Abramson, then they knew it was 8 suicide because 80 percent of that district was 9 minority, all right? So, they stayed with Eddie 10 Abramson to the bitter end, all right? 11 So, the problem is, it is machine 12 politics. Now, the proof is in the pudding today. 13 When we see who talked all day, this gentleman here 14 who was very articulate, Stephen Fiala, talked 15 about, spoke about experience, all right? And we are 16 talking about new people coming in. A machine in the 17 Bronx put a guy in that is 22 years old. What has he 18 got handball experience? I mean, really. Why do we 19 have this guy in office? We have him in office for 20 one reason, because we have very, very powerful 21 political machines. 22 The only time, right now in Queens, 23 this is a freedom moment in Queens, John Sabini 24 could even attest to it himself, because John was a 25 victim of that system, right? But he also Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 408 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 participated in it for years. 3 So, this issue will be fought around 4 political machines, and the people that want to run 5 for office, good, decent God-fearing people, with a 6 lot of talent and energy, can't get past the 7 machine. 8 Thank you. 9 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: You are from the 10 independence party? 11 MR. STRUHS: No, I quit the 12 independence part when Lenora Filani and what we 13 consider the "evil cult" took it over. So, I am not 14 affiliated with the Independence Party at all. But I 15 was Deputy Chairperson in the Independence Party. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And the 17 presidential candidate of the Independence Party 18 was? 19 MR. STRUHS: It wasn't my candidate, 20 because I had already left them -- 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: The presidential 22 candidate for the Independence Party was? 23 MR. STRUHS: Haglan. 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Who? 25 MR. STRUHS: Haglan. He is from a Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 409 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 natural law party. And prior to that they had -- 3 what's his name, Buchanan as the head of the -- 4 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Pat Buchanane? 5 MR. STRUHS: Right. 6 So, Filani sold her soul to the 7 Sandman. 8 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: To the Sandman? 9 MR. STRUHS: Yes. 10 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: I would simply 11 say, I don't want to get involved in that part of 12 politics, but I think you know, as well as I do, 13 that sin is rampant and it has always been, but it 14 doesn't necessarily mean that what we are talking 15 about is the same thing. 16 But I want to thank you for your 17 patience and waiting, and we appreciate the fact 18 that you came back and thought better of it, and we 19 would hope that you understand that we didn't keep 20 you here just in order to torture you, but because 21 we thought that you had something that you would 22 like to share with us, and we have heard your 23 testimony. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: And we watch 25 you on television. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 410 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MR. STRUHS: Thank you. 3 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Now, do you want 4 your note back, or shall I keep it for -- 5 MR. STRUHS: Keep it for posterity. 6 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Oh, posterity? 7 We will never see that piece of paper. 8 Okay, Aida Gonzalez. 9 MS. GONZALEZ: Thank you very much, 10 Madam Chair. And I want to thank all of the members 11 of the Council. I just wanted to thank you and the 12 members of the Council for staying this late. 13 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: We should thank 14 you. As a matter of fact, we should feed you as well 15 as ourselves. 16 Council Member Espada is having 17 something so you should crash it with us. We are 18 going to crash it and eat his food. 19 MS. GONZALEZ: Let me do my best here. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. 21 MS. GONZALEZ: I just wanted to 22 introduce myself. I am a citizen. I am a District 23 Leader at large, a member of the Queens Democratic 24 Party, and I am proud of that. 25 I am a candidate for Council District Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 411 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 21, and I believe I have experience, education and a 3 lot of energy to do what needs to be done. 4 Just for your information, and at 5 least two members of your Committee here are 6 familiar with that. I was a member of Borough 7 President Clair Shulman's staff for 15 years and 8 that was a very enriching experience. I did cultural 9 affairs for her and during the budget process I had 10 the opportunity to actually sit in one of those 11 chairs during agency hearings representing the 12 Borough President. It was for me a great privilege 13 to do that. 14 I also have a master's in Political 15 Science from Queens College. 16 In 1996 I actually worked with 17 Speaker Vallone to bring everybody's attention to 18 the fact that term limits could cost, could have a 19 great cost in terms of good government. 20 And I don't want to go through all 21 the arguments because you have had plenty of that 22 during the day, but those arguments were also 23 counteracted by other arguments, the other arguments 24 being the fact that with term limits an opportunity 25 arises for more democratic representation. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 412 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 And what I did is today, for today's 3 hearing, is to prepare a little bit of a historic 4 research that I have done in terms of the democratic 5 vein of the Council, and I just had eye surgery, so 6 please allow my shortcomings today in terms of my 7 eyes. 8 I want to read, make it expedient, my 9 testimony which is -- 10 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: If you do this, 11 rather than read it, you could sum up. 12 MS. GONZALEZ: No problem. Fine. 13 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Then what we 14 will do is insert your testimony in the record. 15 MS. GONZALEZ: I will go along with 16 you. 17 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you. 18 MS. GONZALEZ: This testimony is to 19 express my strong disagreement with those members of 20 this Council who are seeing the repeal of term 21 limits. Many of them are my friends. I have great 22 respect and admiration for them, and they will 23 continue to be my friends after this proceeding. 24 My research has to do with the fact 25 that the City Council, and I am summarizing, has Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 413 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 from the very beginning, was a body to give 3 representation to the people. And we can see this 4 through the Dongan Charter of 1683 and the 5 Montgomerie Charter of 1730, which are the Charters 6 that governed the City during colonial time, and 7 then after the Revolution, in 1830, you actually 8 have for the first time the Common Council, composed 9 of the Aldermen and Assistant Aldermen, and that is 10 the body that actually precedes and is the 11 forerunner of the City Council. 12 As established by the Reform Charter 13 of 1873, there is also this other body called the 14 Board of Estimate, and we all know that throughout 15 the 20th century there was a great deal of power 16 struggle, and the Division of Labor, if I may use 17 that word between the two bodies, the Board of 18 Estimate and the City Council. 19 But the unconstitutionality of the 20 Board of Estimate was established in the eighties by 21 Court ruling and with the approval of the Charter 22 that currently is in effect, and its amendments, the 23 City Council, as we know it today, came into being 24 as a strong legislative body of a very democratic 25 nature to give power to empower the people of the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 414 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 City of New York, and that is how it has been 3 functioning. 4 However, and I am going to read this 5 last paragraph, as we start the 21st century, and 6 this is what really changed my mind from the 7 argument of good government to the argument of 8 opportunity. As we started the 21st century, today's 9 Council must also be representative of the new 10 constituencies and population and population make-up 11 of New York. 12 The term limits law offers the unique 13 opportunity to address a serious problem, the lack 14 of representation, large communities which have come 15 about as a result of migratory waves, immigration, 16 relocation, in the last few decades. Such is the 17 case of the Asian, Latin-American and other groups, 18 and other communities, especially in the Borough of 19 Queens, where ethnic diversity and cultural 20 diversity are household words. 21 Leaders of the Asian and 22 Latin-American communities, as well as leaders of 23 the gay and lesbian community, having waiting for 24 years for this opportunity provided and approved by 25 the referendum, by the two referendums, that have at Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 415 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 length been discussed here today. 3 And these communities are preparing 4 candidacies, and campaigns. At this stage of the 5 game for these communities and their leaders, the 6 repeal of a law, twice approved by popular 7 referendum, would be a signature of disrespect for 8 those constituencies, and a senseless travesty of 9 democracy. And I object to the repeal of the term 10 limits law. 11 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Thank you so 12 very much. Council Member Harrison I believe has a 13 question. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: I have an 15 observation I would like to share with you, okay? 16 MS. GONZALEZ: Sure. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: There is 18 always reference made to the lack of representation 19 in the Council on the part of the Asian community. I 20 have a large Asian community in Flushing, and I have 21 been challenged for about five years now, every 22 campaign, by Asian candidates, who by and large are 23 not qualified to be candidates because they have 24 never even accessed the ballot with the signatures 25 that they submit because they played the game by Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 416 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 their own rules, okay? That is something maybe you 3 want to debate, but I shant develop that. 4 But the point I make is that I don't 5 see that people should be elected on the basis of 6 ethnicity when there is a community such as I 7 represent that has so very, very many different 8 ethnicities, and the fact that one group has claimed 9 to have saved Flushing by the influx by the money 10 that it has brought in, and we don't know where the 11 money came from, but it came in great, great big 12 gobs, and resulted in a tremendous real estate 13 investment procedures that go on, and the candidate 14 who is being touted now as the one to succeed me is 15 one whom I have defeated in the past, whose father 16 has a very bad reputation at the moment because he 17 has been convicted and sentenced to a term of 30 18 years and $1 million fine for having played with his 19 bank's money, and another term of five years, plus 20 $250,000 fine, and another member of this young 21 man's family has also brought about the decline of 22 the RKO Keefe Theater, which has demolished the 23 opportunities for businesses to establish themselves 24 in a different place. 25 The point I am making is, what right Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 417 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 is given to an ethnic group when they put up 3 candidates who are, within my concern, buying the 4 Council seat with the money that they have to spend. 5 Do we want the Council to be 6 reflective of communities by different ethnicities 7 so that we have a hodge-podge of ethnic 8 representation without concern for the general 9 welfare of the entire community? 10 My community has at least 40 or 50 11 different national groups living in it, so why 12 should I worry about the fact that the Asian 13 community in my district, for example, has not yet 14 achieved election. By what general term are they 15 entitled it any more than the Afro-American 16 community, which has pre-existed the arrival by far, 17 or the Indian community which I have, or the Korean 18 Community or the Greek Community or the Russians who 19 are there, or the people who have always lived 20 there? I mean, by what is this supposed to say to 21 me, when you say leaders of the Asian community have 22 been waiting for years. They have been waiting for 23 years, they are not citizens, they are not 24 registered, they don't vote when they are 25 registered, so what is this supposed to say to me Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 418 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 when they are waiting for years? 3 MS. GONZALEZ: Thank you for your 4 question, Councilwoman. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: I am sorry 6 it took so long to say it. 7 MS. GONZALEZ: That's okay. 8 First allow me to clarify that I am 9 not talking about the right of representation by a 10 person based on ethnicity. I am talking about 11 opportunity. I am talking about the opportunity for 12 any member of any community who is qualified to put 13 together a campaign and a candidacy and state his or 14 her talents, experience, ability and indicate to 15 everybody out there I can do a good job and I can 16 represent you all. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: I agree with 18 you on that. And it should be based on experience -- 19 MS. GONZALEZ: Absolutely. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: Not on 21 ethnicity, because on ethnicity I shouldn't ever 22 have been elected in the first place. There is no 23 community of German-American people living in my 24 community that I have ever known, but because I am 25 uniquely alone in my community and in the Council, I Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 419 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 have the ability to work with everybody because I 3 haven't got a vested interest or a religious 4 connection or anything else. 5 The point I am making is it seems to 6 me we are trying to segregate candidates, not on 7 ability. Because you never hear the question of 8 ability being introduced into the discussion, it is 9 always where do you come from, what is your 10 ethnicity? 11 MS. GONZALEZ: Equadorian-American, if 12 you are asking me the question, that's what I am. 13 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Now that the two 14 of you are in accord, I want to thank you for your 15 testimony and your cooperation, and I now am going 16 to call the next witness and I hope I have got 17 everything. 18 Thank you. 19 MS. GONZALEZ: Thank you. One last 20 word I want to say to Ms. Harrison -- 21 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: One last word. 22 MS. GONZALEZ: That you have been 23 reelected because of your track record, and we have 24 never challenged Council Members, as Mr. Honorable 25 Sabini or Helen Marshall who was here before, Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 420 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 precisely of their good track record and good 3 representation of our communities. An open seat is 4 an open opportunity and that is very different. 5 Thank you very much. 6 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: Thank you 7 very much. 8 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Francesca 9 Castianos. 10 Let me ask you, do you have prepared 11 testimony? 12 MS. CASTIANOS: Excuse me? 13 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Do you have 14 testimony? 15 MS. CASTIANOS: Not written, no. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay, fine. 17 MS. CASTIANOS: I am sure you are just 18 as tired as I am, so I am going to be very brief. Or 19 I am going to try and be very brief. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Permit me to 21 thank you for your patience and for waiting, and 22 would you proceed now? 23 MS. CASTIANOS: I thank you for being 24 here and staying and giving me this opportunity to 25 speak. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 421 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 My name is Francesca Castianos, and I 3 am a democrat resident of Washington Heights, and I 4 am here to talk about my opposition of Intro. 880. 5 First, I agree with a lot of the statements they 6 have been saying as to why people oppose Intro. 880, 7 but one of the things, one of the major points that 8 I want to reflect first, I really disagree with the 9 fact that many say that those of us who, if elected, 10 and term limits passes, are going to come in without 11 any experience, basically I don't think any of you 12 when you came to your position for the first time 13 had experience being City Councilpersons, and so 14 far, based on a lot of the records and the bills 15 that you have passed, you have done a pretty good 16 job, and I think we, as New Yorkers, we are 17 considered and envied by a lot of the other states 18 because we are savvy, we are intelligent and it is 19 very upsetting and denigrating to think that when we 20 voted twice we didn't know what we were doing. I 21 believe we knew what we were doing. I voted for it, 22 I am educated, I am a college graduate. There is no 23 profession that if I wanted to go into I couldn't. 24 Maybe because I don't have enough money, but I do 25 certainly have enough intelligence. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 422 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Secondly, I do not trust that many of 3 the people who claim that if term limits is 4 overthrown, they will not run for office. One reason 5 is because I can state there is a person who has 6 filed for public funds, who has filed for campaign 7 finance whose term limit is over, but this City 8 Councilperson has field for the upcoming elections, 9 and he has gone publicly to state that he is not 10 running. I mean, what kind of message is he giving. 11 He is going out, saying that he is not running, but 12 in the meantime he is filing for campaign to run for 13 matching funds campaign elections. 14 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: For that same 15 office? 16 MS. CASTIANOS: Same office. 17 And, finally, as a voter, and once 18 again, I voted for term limits and I knew what I was 19 voting for and the reason why I was voting for term 20 limits. As many people here have said, we have been 21 disgusted with the fact that you have the same 22 people running over and over, and there are, not 23 everyone, but there are some Councilpersons and 24 there are some politicians who are just there to be 25 politicians, not because they have any real interest Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 423 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 in their community, they are there for other 3 personal interests. 4 And I agree 100 percent with the fact 5 that ethnicity, race, sex, nor sexual preference 6 should qualify you. 7 What should qualify you is your 8 experience, your education and how much time and 9 input you have gone in through the community, you 10 have put into your community. 11 I have run for office before, and I 12 have two disadvantages, that I am a woman and I am 13 Hispanic, okay? And being a woman and being Hispanic 14 has been very difficult for me to try and raise the 15 type of funds to try and get the type of people that 16 I really need to run for office and to oust an 17 incumbent. Especially in my district where, I am 18 sorry, but there is a lot of male, macho chauvinism, 19 and as we can see, a woman has been at a 20 disadvantage in office, this City Council here is a 21 representation of that. 22 We basically are, in the City women 23 represent about 50 percent. I am not certain about 24 the statistics, but I am certain about the fact that 25 we vote more, but we have less people, less women Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 424 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 running for office, and a lot of the reason for 3 this, because it is so hard for us to get into the 4 ballot. 5 So, basically that's all I have to 6 say. 7 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Council Member 8 Sabini. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Thank you, 10 Madam Chair. Not to belabor things, Ms. Castianos, 11 is it? 12 MS. CASTIANOS: Yes, Castianos. It's 13 like Paul Castiano, without the S. 14 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Hopefully you 15 won't suffer the same fate. 16 MS. CASTIANOS: We are not even 17 related. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Okay. Many of 19 the arguments you made I agree with, even though we 20 had substantive disagreement on the final analysis 21 of this bill. But I think it is important to note 22 that many of us agree that virtually anyone who 23 qualifies and gets elected by the people is in 24 effect good enough to serve. I don't disagree with 25 that. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 425 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 I think what concerns many of us is 3 that, since all of us initially came in, never 4 having been here before, but the difference is that 5 under the current law, you will have, for example, 6 in Queens County, everyone coming in under that, so 7 that there is no weaving in of the old and the new, 8 there is no mentoring of the old to the new. That in 9 my borough all 14 members will be new, and, so, you 10 are right, we all come in new, and if you were 11 elected, you would come in new. The difference is 12 that under current law, in Queens everyone would 13 come in new, and in effect two-thirds of the 14 Council, I believe it is, would come in new, and 15 there is nothing wrong with newness, it is when 16 everyone is new that I think it is a troubling 17 situation for someone like me. 18 So, everything I think you said was 19 factual, but the consequences of that when everyone 20 is new I think is bad for the City and that is one 21 of the reasons I decided to co-sponsor the bill. 22 I wanted to complement you on your 23 testimony, I think a lot of the things you said were 24 actually quite true. 25 Thank you. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 426 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 MS. CASTIANOS: But to my 3 understanding, not everyone will be new, there are a 4 certain amount of Council people -- 5 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Two-thirds 6 will, yes. 7 MS. CASTIANOS: Two-thirds will. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: Assuming that 9 everyone who is old will get re-elected, which is no 10 assumption either, but in my borough where I am 11 from, everyone will be new, because all 14 of us are 12 term limited in Queens. And, so, we will be rolled 13 by people from Manhattan, the Bronx, but we are used 14 to that. 15 Thank you. 16 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Okay. I would 17 like to thank you. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: I didn't say 19 Brooklyn, because the Chair is from Brooklyn. 20 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: The most 21 important borough of them all. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER SABINI: No, I didn't 23 say you rolled us. 24 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: Well, we will 25 share a little with Staten Island, they deserve Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 427 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 sympathy. 3 Let me just say this: We thank you 4 for waiting so long and we appreciate your presence. 5 When we say, or those who say, that 6 you are new and you won't know, it is not meant 7 personally and it should not be taken personally. It 8 is taken in the same sense that if you have everyone 9 new, as in Queens, then of course it is going to be 10 very, very difficult for them. And I think the 11 enormity of what is going to happen is not just that 12 the Council will be new, they are going to have a 13 new Borough President, and that means it is going to 14 hurt Queens more than anyone else because they have 15 had a Borough President that had a real in at City 16 Hall. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER HARRISON: And we have 18 the Speaker. 19 CHAIRPERSON PINKETT: And you had the 20 Speaker from Queens, and the Comptroller from 21 Queens. So, Queens is going to have a major 22 toothache, headache and stomachache, because a lot 23 of the concentration of power that was Queens, that 24 muscle, means that they are going to have to really 25 get out there and establish new contracts, and let's Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 428 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 face it, every other borough is going to sing now is 3 our time to establish new relationships. 4 Now, Staten Island, they are going to 5 be in a sense, well, they have been well taken care 6 of, they have nothing left to worry about, they have 7 everything. 8 Our problem is, don't let them bring 9 the garbage into the neighborhood. Keep it going 10 somewhere else. But I think the thing that is most 11 important is that no one considers for one moment 12 that any new person who is going to run for public 13 office is inferior to anyone else. What we are 14 talking about is a cumulative effect of every one 15 coming in and the entire Council being overwhelmed, 16 because the Mayor is going to be new, there will be 17 a lot of staff changes, what we are thinking of, or 18 what has been thought of in terms of this 19 legislation is, how will the City function? What 20 will happen? 21 When you are first elected you think, 22 oh, we can do everything. Then you find out how 23 little you know; what you have to learn; who is 24 going to be there to show you the ropes. 25 When I came in there were people here Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 429 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 from Brooklyn who knew and could tell you, well, do 3 this, go here, this is where you get some jobs, this 4 is where this is, that and the other. But unless you 5 had that kind of relationship, and people who knew, 6 you were sort of at your wits end, you were on your 7 own. 8 The fact also that the matching money 9 for the campaign finance, which every member of this 10 Council was fighting for, that is not just for 11 incumbents, it's for everyone who runs. So, like it 12 or not, or believe it or not, that fight is for you 13 as well as for any incumbent Council member. 14 Now, we could say, oh, it's 15 responsible to do this, we could have a smaller pot, 16 and it won't hurt the incumbent perhaps as much, 17 because the incumbent has up to a certain point a 18 newsletter. He has established a relationship with 19 his constituents. But we haven't agreed, nor will we 20 agree, to reduce that dollar value, because we are 21 still staying that Council members when they come on 22 are still Council members. And we feel there is a 23 need to open the door, and you are on the other side 24 of the door, so we are trying to open the door for 25 you and others like you. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 430 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 So, thank you, again. Do we have 3 anyone waiting to testify? 4 Do we have anyone whose filed an 5 appearance ticket to offer testimony who has not 6 been called? 7 If you put your hand up I will break 8 it (laughter). 9 Is there anyone who has not been 10 called who has an appearance ticket? None? Hearing 11 none, we are going to read into the record the 12 Association of the Bar of the City of New York's 13 testimony from the Committee on New York City 14 Affairs. That will become a part of the record. 15 We would like to thank you for your 16 attendance at this very short meeting of the 17 Committee on Governmental Operations. 18 Go home. Go home. Go home. Thank you. 19 This Committee is adjourned. 20 (The following written testimony was 21 read into the record.) 22 23 Written Testimony Of: 24 The Association of the Bar of the 25 City of New York Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 431 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Committee on New York City Affairs 3 4 Report on Intro. No. 880, in relation 5 to repealing term limits for Council Members. 6 The Association urges the City 7 Council not to adopt Intro. No. 880, which would 8 repeal term limits for City Council members. 9 Our major concern is that repeal of 10 term limits without a referendum would betray the 11 trust of the voters. 12 The electorate has spoken twice on 13 this issue, both times voting for term limits. 14 Regardless of whether the Council has 15 the legal authority to repeal term limits or whether 16 these limits are a good idea, repeal of term limits 17 without going back to the voters is bad public 18 policy. 19 It would undermine the voter's 20 confidence and value of casting their votes and 21 would also fundamentally weaken the reputation of 22 the Council, which members of the Council have 23 assiduously worked to enhance since 1989 Charter 24 Revision. 25 The last time the voters addressed Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 432 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 this issue was in 1996. Since that time, the Council 3 has had several years to place term limit proposals 4 on the ballot, but has not done so. 5 Delaying action until the year term 6 limits are to take effect, the Council has passed up 7 the opportunity to structure a proposal and explain 8 that importance of the issue to a potentially 9 receptive electorate. 10 Instead, Intro. No. 880 would 11 disregard the will of the electorate, which may 12 rightfully expect to have a say in changing the 13 policy so fundamental to the nature of New York 14 City's representative government. 15 We took issue with some of the 16 legislative findings set forth in the bill. With 17 regard to the bill's argument that the impact of 18 term limits falls heavily on minority voters, 19 there is absolutely no showing that term limits 20 would disadvantage minority voters. 21 Indeed, by eliminating long-term 22 incumbents' hold on many districts, it is possible 23 that minority representation on the Council might 24 increase. And since the terms of the Speaker and 25 many key Committee Chairs would be ended, there may Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 433 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 be greater opportunities for minority members to 3 gain leadership positions. 4 The legislative findings also suggest 5 the Council is upholding the federal and state 6 constitutions by eliminating term limits. 7 However, courts around the country 8 have consistently held that term limits are 9 constitutional. By substantial majorities in 1993 10 and 1996, term limits were adopted and confirmed by 11 New York City's voters. 12 In so doing they expressly relinquish 13 the opportunity to vote for incumbents who have 14 served a certain number of terms. The majority is 15 free to make that choice. 16 The argument that the City's campaign 17 finance law eliminates the so-called power of 18 incumbency overstates the case. 19 The Campaign Finance Law passed by 20 the Council and fine-tuned in 1998, is truly a 21 national model. It moderates, but does not 22 eliminate, the power of incumbency, which includes 23 extra access to publicity and mailings, the ability 24 to dispense budgeted funds and the opportunity to 25 run from districts whose boundaries they may have Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 434 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 helped design. 3 The incumbent advantage is bolstered 4 by New York's absurdly complex ballot access 5 provisions, which are used to disqualify or greatly 6 burden challengers. 7 We are also concerned that passage of 8 term limits repeal legislation at this late date 9 would make this year's election, which has already 10 drawn enormous candidate interest, more difficult to 11 administer, and more confusing for New Yorkers to 12 sort out. 13 If enacted, the legislation will be 14 tested in the courts, and candidates who have 15 invested resources and energy and solicited 16 contributions to develop their candidacies would 17 have to contend with uncertainty as to whether 18 incumbents would be on the ballot. 19 Although a number of supporters of 20 Intro. No. 880 have articulated reasonable concerns 21 about the impact of term limits on the Council as an 22 institution, repeal of term limits without a 23 referendum would not be seen as legislating in the 24 public interes. Indeed, the public would view repeal 25 in this fashion to the great discredit of the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 435 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 Council. 3 The Association of the Bar urges the 4 Council to reject Intro. No. 880. 5 6 7 Written Testimony Of: 8 Aida Gonzalez-Jarrin 9 10 To Speaker Peter Vallone and All The Members of the 11 New York City Council. 12 This testimony is to express my 13 strong disagreement with those members of this 14 Council who are seeking to repeal that repeal of the 15 term limits law. 16 From its beginning in Colonial times, 17 the City Council has been established to provide 18 representation to the people and empower the people 19 with a voice and decision-making ability so that 20 they may play a vital role in municipal government 21 in a most democratic way. 22 In a nutshell, by provisions of the 23 Dongan Charter, 1683, and the Montgomerie Charter, 24 1730, popular representatives given the title of 25 aldermen and assistant aldermen were assisted and Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 436 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 given powers to pass local laws and ordinances. 3 After the Revolution, in 1830, these 4 aldermen and assistant aldermen were merged into a 5 body called the "Common Council". They were 6 empowered to make laws. Those laws were submitted to 7 the Mayor for approval. The Mayor could either 8 approve or veto the laws. If the Mayor vetoed a law, 9 the Common Council could override the Mayor's veto 10 with a majority vote. 11 The Common Council was the forerunner 12 of today's Council. 13 The Reform Charter of 1873 provided 14 for the establishment of the Board of Estimate, 15 which originally was an organism to estimate the 16 cost of running the City; however, this body, 17 especially after the consolidation of Greater New 18 York, which took place in 1898, acquired certain 19 legislative powers to the detriment of the City 20 Council. 21 Yet, that same year, the new City was 22 divided in 73 districts, and one aldermen was 23 elected to represent each district providing more 24 democratic representation to the people of this 25 City. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 437 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 By 1936, the title of Alderman was 3 replaced with that of Councilman. 4 Throughout the 20th century, the City 5 Council and the Board of Estimate were at odds with 6 each other as legislative bodies, until Charter and 7 its amendments the Board of Estimate was finally 8 abolished. 9 The Council now with 51 elected 10 representatives emerged as a strong and democratic 11 legislative body. Subsequently two referendums in 12 the '90s established term limits for all municipal 13 elected officials, a law just about to be 14 implemented to improve government. 15 As we start the 21st century, today's 16 Council must be representative of the new 17 constituencies and population make-up of New York. 18 The term limits law offers us the unique opportunity 19 to address serious problems. 20 The lack of representation for large 21 communities, which have come about as a result of 22 migratory waves and relocation. 23 In the last few decades, such is the 24 case of the Asians, Latin Americans, and other 25 groups, especially in the Borough of Queens, where Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 438 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 ethnic diversity and cultural diversity are 3 household words, leaders of the Asian and 4 Latin-American communities, as well as the leaders 5 of the gay and lesbian community have been waiting 6 for years for this opportunity and are preparing 7 candidacies and campaigns. 8 At this stage of the game, for these 9 communities and their leaders, the repeal of a law 10 twice approved by popular referendum, would be a 11 signature of disrespect for these constituencies and 12 a senseless travesty of democracy. Mr. Speaker, I 13 object to the repeal of the Term Limits Law. 14 15 16 Written Testimony Of: 17 Giovanni Puello 18 19 As a New York City candidate for the 20 10th District in Manhattan, I am outraged by the 21 attempt to repeal term limits and call on Council 22 Members to obey the wishes of the people. 23 The people of New York City have 24 spoken and voted not just once, but twice, for term 25 limits. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 439 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 In 1993, voters approved term limits 3 for all City elected officials. Three years later 4 they rejected a ballot challenge in the new law, 5 which takes effect at the end of this year. 6 It is an insult to our intelligence 7 to say that the voters did not understand the 8 consequences of their vote. We, the voters, did know 9 what we were voting for. 10 To overturn the term limits 11 legislation which the people already voted for, 12 would be to violate basic principles of democracy, 13 to undermine the will of the people expressed in the 14 ballot, to assassinate hope, freedom and public 15 liberty. 16 After the redistricting brought about 17 by the 1990 census, there were more political 18 neophytes running for office than there are today. 19 Many of us have legislative and administrative 20 experience. However, I would like to call on the 21 Speaker and the Mayor to take a proactive approach 22 to address the challenges presented by term limits. 23 Those in the City Council who are 24 trying to do away with term limits, used as their 25 chief argument that term limits will cause chaos in Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 440 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 City government because it will replace experienced 3 legislators with inexperienced ones. This is simply 4 not true. 5 The Citizens' Union Foundation stated 6 in its Spring 1999 report on term limits, New York 7 is fortunate to have an extraordinary reservoir of 8 talented individuals with hands-on experience in the 9 governance and politics of this City. 10 They recommended that implementation 11 of a blue ribbon Task Force on Term Limit 12 implementation, with a mandate to develop an 13 aggressive proactive response to term limits, 14 including long-term structural adjustments that 15 would strengthen the Council and promote the 16 development of new leadership. 17 Baruch College just completed a 18 series of seminars for aspiring candidates. The 19 Center for Excellence in New York City Governance, 20 Citizens Foundation and Cora are also offering a 21 series of seminars designed to assist candidates and 22 key staff as they share their positions and 23 political agenda. 24 Once again, we ask that our elected 25 officials not put their own self-interests before Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 441 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 the will of their constituents. 3 4 5 Written Testimony Of: 6 New York City Greens 7 8 Twenty-two New York City Council 9 Members have audaciously decided to flout the public 10 by introducing legislation to repeal term limits. 11 Regardless of how one might feel 12 about term limits, their actions are a slap in the 13 face by the public will. They were elected as public 14 servants, instead they have become self-serving. 15 They ignore the public's position, voice in passing 16 the term limits referendum. 17 The Council members make the 18 fallacious argument that the City government will be 19 deprived of experienced representatives. They ignore 20 the fact that many of the candidates are veterans. 21 Some new candidates have years of hands-on 22 government experience, others are activists with 23 years of community service. 24 These candidates offer the widest 25 variety of experience ever fielded before the Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 442 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 voters. 3 To equate this diversity with 4 inexperience is a politically defensive rationalism 5 in its most blatant form. 6 Term limits are a counterweight to 7 the power of incumbency. That power has been used in 8 our flawed electoral process to pervert the very 9 meaning and intent of democracy. That power is used 10 to stifle the voice of challenging candidates. Its 11 puts community organizations under the control of 12 the incumbent Councilperson who deploys his 13 resources throughout a district. 14 Would a community organization allow 15 a Green Party candidate or any other challenger to 16 speak at its meeting when the incumbent controls the 17 resources? The fear of punitive action, whether made 18 explicit or not, acts as a forceful deterrent to 19 free speech. 20 Candidates are denied access to speak 21 to organizations when an incumbent has the power to 22 deny resources. Imagine what might happen if some 23 members of that community organization dared to 24 support a challenger to the incumbent. 25 There are better alternatives to term Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 443 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 limits. Proportional representation is one. If a 3 party received 10 percent of the vote, it would gain 4 10 percent of the seats. That ensures minority 5 viewpoints are heard. It makes every vote count. 6 When the New York City Council had 7 proportional representation during 1930s and 1940s, 8 political, ethnic and racial barrier were broken. A 9 multitude of ideas were represented. 10 Another way to break the power of the 11 incumbency is simply to break a lock a single 12 Council member has on the control of community 13 resources. 14 It might be found in a publicly 15 elected community board which has the power to 16 disperse funds previously in the domain of a single 17 Council person. 18 There may be other ways to create a 19 more functional democracy. Those ideas won't be 20 heard without the opportunity term limits creates. 21 Term limits are a badly needed step, 22 opening the door to still better and more democratic 23 solutions. Fundamental, for a healthier democracy, 24 the Green Party believes that power must be held by 25 the community and not the incumbent. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 444 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 A neighborhood has the right to shape 3 its own destiny, not the developers nor self-serving 4 elected officials. 5 An elected official is hired by the 6 community as a public servant. Those 22 Council 7 members are breaking a public trust. Incumbents 8 abuse and reverse the power relationship which 9 should be held by the community, term limits are a 10 step in creating better democratic solutions and 11 greater community empowerment. 12 13 14 Written Testimony Of: 15 People for Jeanette Evans 16 17 To the Council Members favoring Bill 18 880: 19 I have not come here to shake a 20 finger at you. Ten years ago, before I got into 21 politics, I felt the same way you do about term 22 limits. But now that I have had firsthand experience 23 with our political system, I am taking a stand 24 against the political machine. 25 As puppeteer of career politicians Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 445 1 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS 2 and political dynasties, with its characteristic job 3 patronage, cronyism, nepotism and monied interests, 4 I support any mechanism that will help facilitate 5 its demise. 6 I believe public service should 7 represent something bigger than one's self, more 8 important than one's job or aspirations, bearing 9 more weight than the party or ideology. 10 First among an office holder's 11 responsibility must be a commitment to uphold the 12 will of the people. Yet, so often the people's will 13 is thwarted. We are sick and tired of it. 14 I speak from experience. You know me, 15 I have come to City Hall before on behalf of my 16 community, I can testify that some members have a 17 thin regard for the people's will. 18 Term limits as a hallmark of good 19 government has taken root throughout the nation. It 20 flies in the face of common sense to limit other 21 offices while excluding the Council. In fact, term 22 limits should be expanded to include school boards. 23 Thank you. 24 (Hearing concluded at 7:45 p.m.) 25 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 446 1 2 CERTIFICATION 3 4 5 STATE OF NEW YORK ) 6 COUNTY OF NEW YORK ) 7 8 9 I, CINDY MILLELOT, a Certified 10 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the 11 State of New York, do hereby certify that the 12 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the 13 within proceeding. 14 I further certify that I am not 15 related to any of the parties to this action by 16 blood or marriage, and that I am in no way 17 interested in the outcome of this matter. 18 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 19 set my hand this 8th day of March 2001. 20 21 22 23 24 --------------------- 25 CINDY MILLELOT, CSR. Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410 447 1 2 C E R T I F I C A T I O N 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I, CINDY MILLELOT, a Certified Shorthand 10 Reporter and a Notary Public in and for the State of 11 New York, do hereby certify the aforesaid to be a 12 true and accurate copy of the transcription of the 13 audio tapes of this hearing. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ----------------------- CINDY MILLELOT, CSR. 25 Legal-Ease Court Reporting Services, Inc. (800) 756-3410