1 2 CITY COUNCIL 3 CITY OF NEW YORK 4 -------------------------------x 5 THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE MINUTES 6 of the 7 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE 8 And LABOR 9 -------------------------------x 10 March 31, 2008 11 Start: 1:08 p.m. Recess: 1:51 p.m. 12 City Hall 13 250 Broadway, 14th Floor New York, New York 14 15 B E F O R E: 16 JOSEPH ADDABBO Chairperson, 17 18 COUNCIL MEMBERS: Michael Nelson Larry Seabrook 19 Melissa Mark-Viverito 20 21 22 23 24 LEGAL-EASE COURT REPORTING SERVICES, INC. 17 Battery Place - Suite 1308 25 New York, New York 10004 (800) 756-3410 2 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S 3 Edgar DeJesus 4 Organizing Director District Council 37, AFSCME 5 Dr. Barry Liebowitz 6 President Doctors Council SIEU 7 Dr. Kathleen Ward 8 Dr. Ingrid Nelson 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Good morning, 3 everyone. Welcome to the hearing on Civil Service 4 and Labor. Good afternoon, everyone. I'm trying to 5 rush the day along. Good afternoon. 6 My name is Joe Addabbo. I have the 7 privilege of Chairing the Civil Service and Labor 8 Committee Hearing, and I welcome you all here to a 9 rather important day for the Labor Committee, as far 10 as voting out a resolution that's going to mean a 11 lot to a lot of people. 12 At this point, let me just, again, 13 introduce those who are here with us, as far as 14 Committee members and Council members. 15 To my far right, Council Member Larry 16 Seabrook. Next to him, on his left, Council Member 17 Mike Nelson. To my right here, my Legislative Aid, 18 Jeff Gottlieb. I would like to thank to my left 19 here, Shauneequa Owusu, our Policy Analyst, and to 20 her left, our Legal Counsel, Cris Sartori. I want to 21 thank you all for being here and for helping us get 22 this hearing together. 23 Today the Committee will vote out 24 Resolution 1180, which calls upon Congress to pass 25 the Employee Free Choice Act. 4 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 This federal legislation would amend 3 the National Labor Relations Act to establish a 4 system to enable employees to form, join or assist 5 labor organizations. 6 Generally unions provide workers with 7 better wages, benefits, working conditions and 8 pensions while promoting fair and equal treatment 9 and civic participation. 10 The Free Choice Act will provide for 11 mandatory injunctions and stronger penalties for 12 unfair labor practices during organizing efforts, 13 and provide a structure for mediation and 14 arbitration where parties are unable to agree and 15 reach an agreement. 16 On February 28th, this Committee had 17 a hearing in which we heard from workers who had 18 actually witnessed some verbal and physical abuse as 19 they tried to organize for the benefit of the 20 workers. And it's disheartening to hear that even in 21 this day and age we are still grappling with this 22 issue. 23 That is why because of the situations 24 like that and situations like we'll hear today from 25 those giving testimony, that the Free Choice Act and 5 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 our Resolution 1180 is very important and necessary 3 to vote out. 4 At this point, we're going to hear 5 our first panel, representing DC 37. Edgar DeJesus. 6 Edgar, please step forward to the table. 7 State your name and title for the 8 record and give your testimony, please. 9 MR. DeJESUS: Good afternoon, Chairman 10 Addabbo, and members of the Committee. My name is 11 Edgar DeJesus, and I am the Organizing Director for 12 District Council 37 of AFSCME. 13 I am here to testify in support of 14 Resolution 1180, calling on the United States 15 Congress and on America's elected officials to 16 support the civil human and labor rights 17 legislation, known as the Employer Free Choice Act. 18 In every organizing campaign and 19 effort that I've been involved in, specifically in 20 the private sector, subject to the rules of the 21 National Labor Relations Act, I have tried to get 22 workers ready for what would happen to them when 23 their employer discovered their interest in union. 24 They are often made to feel that they 25 are choosing between their rights and their job. 6 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 Union busting has become a professional service 3 offered by anti-union consultants and union-avoiding 4 specialists. 5 Some common fear tactics employed by 6 the employers: 7 - mandatory group meetings, captive 8 audience meetings. 9 - individual interrogations. These 10 interrogations are conducted by supervisors or 11 managers. 12 - bribes. The employer often promises 13 all, a select group of employees or individuals, 14 increased benefits, a higher, better shift 15 assignment, promotion or some other advantage if 16 they reject the union. 17 - and outright threats. Employers 18 commonly threaten to close or move their business if 19 employees form a union. 20 In an effort to walk the thin line 21 established by the National Labor Relations Act, 22 many employers will recruit workers usually through 23 hollow bribes to employ fear tactics on their behalf 24 and thus create an atmosphere of fear and paranoia 25 at the workplace. 7 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 According to Labor Board statistics 3 of 1969, the number of workers who suffered for 4 illegal retaliation for union organizing was just 5 over 6,000. 6 In 2005, the NLRB, the National Labor 7 Relations, annual report reported 31,358 workers. 8 Imagine how many more workers experienced 9 discrimination for their union activity but were 10 never compensated because they did not have the 11 resource or patience to withstand an often lengthy 12 legal battle with their employer. 13 The fear at the work site often 14 results in loss for the union and workers' rights 15 and NLRB sponsored elections. 16 After the union electoral loss, the 17 pro-union workers, often harassed by management and 18 eventually fired. 19 These are generalities that many 20 unions face. But right here, right now in New York 21 we have an opportunity to see this broken system in 22 action. 23 In Central Park the municipal 24 employee with union rights have a field staff of 25 less than 25 blue collar workers. 8 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 The overwhelming majority of workers, 3 approximately 250 to 300 in Central Park, are 4 employed by the Central Park Conservancy, a private, 5 non-profit partner with the City of New York. 6 While the Central Park Conservancy 7 has done an extraordinary job in returning the dire 8 conditions of Central Park around since the 1970s, 9 the plight of the now private sector employees of 10 Central Park Conservancy have created conditions 11 crying out for union representation in defense of 12 workers' rights. 13 The Conservancy employees have taken 14 the first step towards forming a union. By January 15 2008, a significant number of Conservancy employees 16 signed union designation cards. 17 The employees were well on their way 18 to forming a union. Upon learning that their 19 employees were joining with District Council 37 as a 20 union representative, the Conservancy Management 21 initiated a fear-based anti-union campaign, 22 utilizing all of the tactics I just described 23 previously. 24 Management held an average of two 25 captive audience meetings per day, and individual 9 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 interrogations with Conservancy employees were told 3 that supporting the union was an act of disloyalty. 4 Managers are and have been strictly 5 supervising the pro-union workers. They now attend 6 all staff meetings and are present in keyworker 7 areas, such as the lunch or break rooms. 8 Workers have been fed lies and 9 exaggerations of union dues, alleged history of 10 corruption and the union's inability deliver 11 improved conditions. 12 Conservancy management have told 13 workers that the owners will stop giving money to 14 the Conservancy if they form a union and that it is 15 impossible to negotiate a contract for wages with a 16 non-profit organization. 17 DC 37, we offered a car check and a 18 neutrality agreement fashioned after the principles 19 of the Federal Free Choice Act. 20 The Conservancy's legal 21 representative informed us via e-mail that our 22 proposal had been rejected and full. 23 Today, I ask you to support the 24 Federal Employee Free Choice Act, and more 25 importantly, I ask you to extend support to the 10 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 Central Park workers who labor every day to maintain 3 Central Park's pristine condition with City 4 residents and tourists. 5 They deserve to work and seek their 6 union rights without fear at their worksite right 7 now. 8 Here in New York, in our official 9 back yard workers' rights are being evaluated. Here 10 in New York workers feel that they have to choose 11 between standing up for their right or keeping their 12 job. 13 Conservancy employees, they need to 14 know that they are not alone, and that when and if 15 their rights are violated, they can count on City 16 officials to enforce the law. 17 I hope that you will consider signing 18 on to a letter of support, which will be distributed 19 to the workers in Central Park. 20 The letter seeks to give the facts 21 about the right to form a union and clearly states 22 that the Council encourages the employees to 23 exercise their right to self-organization. 24 I hope that you will consider the 25 possibility of a New York City Council resolution of 11 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 support for the workers at the Central Park 3 Conservancy. 4 Contract employees working for 5 organizations in partnership with the City, they 6 should be entitled to do the same bargaining rights 7 enjoyed by any other City employee. They are public 8 servants. 9 I, and many other City residents, are 10 concerned that if we continue to turn a blind eye to 11 the working conditions of contract employees, that 12 we will soon live in a City with two parallel public 13 workforces, one that enjoys the protection of a 14 union contract, the other working at the mercy and 15 whim of his employer. 16 We are and always have been a pro 17 worker, pro union City. Let's work together to clean 18 up our back yard. Let's have one New York City with 19 civil and labor rights for all. 20 Please vote and pass the resolution 21 in support of the Employer Free Choice Act. Please 22 support the right of the Central Park Conservancy 23 Workers to have a union and put an end to the 24 Central Park Conservancy management's conditions of 25 fear and paranoia. 12 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 Along with my written testimony, I 3 have submitted copies of letters by employees of 4 Central Park Conservancy who wanted to submit 5 testimony for the record describing the employers' 6 fear and intimidation tactics. 7 These workers cannot join us here 8 today out of concern and fear of employer 9 retaliation in Central Park. 10 Thank you for your time, and I will 11 be happy to answer any questions that you may have. 12 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Mr. DeJesus, 13 thank you very much for your time and testimony. 14 First let me say thank you to the 15 Central Park workers. I think they do a phenomenal 16 job in what is a jewel of the City, Central Park. 17 So, again, on behalf of the Labor 18 Committee, thank you very much to the workers and 19 the work that they do. 20 You mentioned in your testimony an 21 interesting concept - the right to choose or 22 standing up for the rights of keeping their job. And 23 nobody should really have that over their head as 24 they go to work every day. 25 Do you see the Free Choice Act as 13 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 affecting morale and productivity? If we had the 3 Free Choice Act enacted and it was implemented, then 4 these workers can go to work with the choice of 5 forming or organizing and not have that fear like 6 you mentioned in your testimony. Is that fear 7 affecting their morale and productivity? 8 MR. DeJESUS: Without a doubt the fear 9 protects their morale, their productivity, their 10 sense of job security. I would even venture to say 11 that job security on the part of these workers is 12 more of a concern than the actual case of a wage, 13 right? Because they have a lot of complaints, not 14 just about wages, but about safety conditions. 15 So, the Free Choice Act and the 16 penalties that it's talking about, recognizing that 17 once you have majority workers, they're not going to 18 entertain a campaign that gives the employer the 19 right to come into the work site during working 20 hours and conduct anti-union meetings, right? 21 Since the Central Park Campaign, 22 workers have been targeted during working time, 23 during working hours, whereas in the union 24 organizing, we cannot do it during working hours. We 25 could only see the workers before work, seven or six 14 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 in the morning, or 11:00 at night. You know, after 3 they come out of work, but the employee uses working 4 hours to conduct his activity. 5 That has created high levels of 6 stress amongst the workforce. The Employee Free 7 Choice Act will eliminate that type of activity on 8 the part of the employer. 9 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: There seems to 10 be a consensus about many who support the Free 11 Choice Act. What is the current status of the 12 Central Park Conservancy Workers in their efforts to 13 organize? Where does it currently stand? 14 MR. DeJESUS: Right now I call it 15 stalemate. Right now we're at a point where we have 16 sufficient cards to file for elections. We could 17 move it forward, but the employer campaign of fear 18 has been so great, right, that we run the risk that 19 unless conditions of fear is eliminated, conducting 20 an election at this moment is -- I sometimes compare 21 it that if you take it to a third-world country with 22 a dictatorship and telling you vote for the dictator 23 because if not, you know, and then they call that 24 democracy. In Central Park the conditions of fear 25 that exist right now, and paranoia with the workers, 15 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 that has been created by the employer, needs to come 3 to an end. And it is for that reason that we came in 4 front of this body supporting the Employee Free 5 Choice Act. 6 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: And, so, without 7 the Free Choice Act, right now you feel that the 8 efforts of those workers are just going to stay the 9 way they are, it will remain status quo, until the 10 employer backs off a little bit? 11 MR. DeJESUS: We need to show to the 12 workers that the City of New York supports a basic 13 right to association. The right to a union is a 14 basic right, and the type of activity that the 15 employer is conducting every day during working 16 hours needs to be combatted. 17 It's not enough for the union 18 organizers on the outside to convince them of that. 19 They're more concerned with, as much as many of them 20 want the union, they're concerned that if they come 21 out publicly, we'll be discharged. So that's a real 22 concern right now and we need to be able to 23 challenge that. 24 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Do you know some 25 of the issues that the workers have with the 16 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 employer currently that they would seek to improve 3 if the Free Choice Act gets implemented? 4 What are the kind of the issues that 5 the workers want to work on, as far as improving 6 their workplace environment? 7 MR. DeJESUS: In Central Park and the 8 City parks, District Council 37 represents the 9 public employee, the employee that's employed by the 10 Department of Parks and Recreation. 11 We work side-by-side with the 12 workers. So, the workers know what the union park 13 employee is eligible to receive, and what they get. 14 There is big contrast. A District 15 Council 37 member working in the parks has a 16 grievance procedure, and there is due process, you 17 are innocent until you are proven guilty. Not with 18 the Central Park Conservancy worker. There is no due 19 process, right? 20 Aside from just changes, disparities 21 and wages, aside from disparities and medical 22 benefits, you know, aside from the disparity 23 between the non-union and the union worker, the 24 basic element of due process and job security does 25 not exist. 17 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 The Central Park worker that's a 3 member of the union could grieve, you know, could go 4 to a safety committee to discuss the safety issues. 5 The non-Conservancy employee has no recourse. Their 6 only recourse is the employer's book that says the 7 at-will (sic) rules and if you don't like it, we 8 could discharge you right away, all right? So that's 9 what they have in front of them. 10 The differences between the unionized 11 park worker and the non is very big. 12 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: And, yet, these 13 workers are working side-by-side next to each other. 14 Correct me if I'm wrong. But the non-union and the 15 unionized worker at Central Park are working 16 side-by-side doing the same job technically. 17 MR. DeJESUS: He works side-by-side 18 and more so the partnership of the City with these 19 conservancies is that as the unionized park employee 20 retires or leaves employment, that post gets filled 21 up by the non-Conservancy post. So there's like a 22 policy of attrition and reduction of the public 23 servant that's unionized and an increase of a 24 non-union workforce, so when we address the issue of 25 a two-tier workforce for the public parks, this is 18 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 in the process of development. 3 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Hence the need, 4 as you have said, for one New York City. 5 MR. DeJESUS: For one New York City. 6 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Any questions 7 from my colleagues? 8 Council Member Nelson. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER NELSON: Thank you. Hi. 10 Welcome. 11 Do you think there is any possible 12 reality, though, to the threat that they might close 13 shop? 14 MR. DeJESUS: Oh, none whatsoever. 15 No, none whatsoever. One, we would 16 not entertain an organizing of a workforce if we 17 didn't think that the economics of the employer is 18 sufficient to ensure that the workers could move 19 forward with it. So, just as basic smarts, in terms 20 of trying to bring justice to workers. 21 But Central Park Conservancy is 22 probably the parks of all parks, right? It's 23 internationally known, not just known in the United 24 States, the Conservancy, approximately ten to 15 25 percent, it changes every annual budget, it gets 19 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 financed from City and State taxes, the balance of 3 it is through fundraising. 4 Central Park Conservancy, of all the 5 different parks of the City of New York is probably 6 one of the most well-off parks. There is no doubt 7 that the ability for its employees to negotiate with 8 their employer to improve economic and just basic 9 rules and conditions, that basic right for us is a 10 no-brainer. It does exist in Central Park. That the 11 employer is fighting us the way he is, is really 12 surprising. He's doing it, and the way he's doing 13 it, right? 14 If there is ever a park that will not 15 be losing donors, it's not going to be Central Park. 16 Aside from the fact that AFSCME and District Council 17 37 and District Council 1707, we represent, AFSCME 18 combined in the City of New York represents over 500 19 non-profit institutions - from the museums, the 20 cultural institutions, many of them are non-profit 21 and enjoy collective bargaining arrangements with 22 our union. 23 So, that's not an answer. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER NELSON: Okay, so it's 25 not really a threat there. Thank you. 20 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Thank you, 3 Council Member Nelson. 4 There being no other questions, Mr. 5 DeJesus, thank you very much for your time and 6 testimony. 7 The statement that you have submitted 8 to the Committee will become part of the record. 9 MR. DeJESUS: Thank you very much. 10 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: So we appreciate 11 that. And for the workers, thank them very much. We 12 appreciate the work that they do -- 13 MR. DeJESUS: Thank you. 14 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: -- In Central 15 Park. Thank you very much. 16 I want to thank this panel for being 17 here today, and for their testimony. 18 The next panel is Dr. Barry Liebowitz 19 from Doctors Council, Dr. Ingrid Nelson and Dr. 20 Kathleen Ward. 21 Please state your name and give your 22 testimony, please. 23 DR. LIEBOWITZ: Good afternoon. My 24 name is Dr. Barry Liebowitz. I'm President of 25 Doctors Council SEIU. 21 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 I'm here today to testify in favor of 3 the City Council Resolution 1180, which supports the 4 passage of federal Employee Free Choice Act, and to 5 provide a glaring example at two hospitals in the 6 Bronx, why employees need greater protection of 7 their rights to unionize. 8 I am joined by Dr. Kathleen Ward and 9 Dr. Ingrid Nelson, both physicians at Jacobi Medical 10 Center. 11 Doctors Council is the Nation's 12 oldest and largest union of attending physicians and 13 dentists. Representing more than 3,500 doctors based 14 largely in New York City's municipal hospitals, 15 clinics and mayoral agencies. 16 Doctors Council prides itself on not 17 being only a union for doctors but also a voice for 18 patients. Our union has proudly worked with 19 community advocacy groups, Health and Hospital 20 Corporation and the City Council on vital public 21 health and patient care issues. 22 Workers should have a right to join a 23 union without harassment or intimidation. Yet, as 24 Speaker Quinn rightly commented in announcing this 25 resolution, employer interference in union elections 22 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 has escalated in recent years. 3 One of the best aspects of the 4 Employee Free Choice Act is that it would allow 5 employees to form unions by signing cards, 6 authorizing union representation. Indeed, Committee 7 Chairman Addabbo had correctly noted that the 8 evidence shows that some employers across this 9 country are still interfering with workers' attempts 10 to unionize. 11 The National Labor Relations Act, 12 instead of protecting employees, is often used by 13 employers to prevent or delay employees from forming 14 a union. 15 It is used as a weapon against 16 employees' rights to organize. 17 Let me offer a clear example in New 18 York City where the Employee Free Choice Act would 19 benefit employees and the public. 20 The doctors at Jacobi Medical Center 21 and North Central Bronx Hospitals, both HHC 22 hospitals, recently contacted Doctors Council. Over 23 72 percent of the 350 doctors at these hospitals had 24 now signed onto a petition to join our union. 25 These doctors want to stay in patient 23 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 care to improve their working conditions, and to 3 have the same rights that Doctors Council, union 4 doctors have in every other HHC facility in the City 5 of New York. 6 We have spoken to Alan Aviles, the 7 President of HHC, and requested voluntary 8 recognition. 9 HHC which owns and operates both 10 hospitals passed the ball to what we call the 11 affiliate, New York Medical Alliance, NYMA, which 12 uses that affiliate to hire doctors at both Jacobi 13 and North Central Bronx. 14 They told us to work it out with the 15 affiliate, whose President is Dr. Ellen Crain. We 16 have attempted to reach out repeatedly to Dr. Crain 17 and but to no avail - phone calls, e-mails or 18 whatever. The doctors themselves went up to visit 19 with her, and there was no dialogue. 20 All we're seeking is to open up a 21 process to begin a process. 22 Under the Employee Free Choice Act, 23 anti-union tactics that delay or deny the doctor's 24 right to join a union would make the employer 25 subject to penalties. 24 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 In fact, under the Employee Free 3 Choice Act, Doctors Council would automatically 4 recognize the union having received the support of 5 72 percent of the doctors. 6 The path that HHC and the affiliate 7 NYMA have chosen at Jacobi and North Central Bronx, 8 is paved with all kinds of delay tactics, and should 9 be unacceptable at a City hospital, or in any other 10 workplace. 11 The choice of the doctors should be 12 heard and respected. 13 We want to engage HHC and the 14 affiliate NYMA in a dialogue that sets up a fair 15 election process at Jacobi and North Central Bronx, 16 which is known as a stipulated election. This is 17 entirely appropriate and often done when such a 18 large majority of employees petition to unionize and 19 it's the best process to avoid a fight in an 20 election, as well as any protracted legal maneuver 21 to avoid having a union. 22 We are willing to have a government 23 supervised secret ballot election conducted by the 24 National Labor Relations Board. 25 We are attempting to meet with the 25 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 affiliate NYMA and HHC, simply to discuss who would 3 be eligible to participate in the election. When and 4 where would it be held? And any other issues about 5 the election. 6 We ask that this Committee do two 7 things today: Support Resolution 1180, which would 8 provide greater protection for employees who want to 9 unionize, and join us in supporting the doctors at 10 Jacobi and North Central Bronx by calling the 11 affiliate NYMA and HHC to allow the doctors to vote 12 in a fair process and support the right to form a 13 union. 14 Doing so is the first step in 15 honoring the spirit of Resolution 1180 on a local 16 level. While this Committee cannot pass the federal 17 Employee Free Choice Act, it can work to ensure that 18 its principles are adhered to in New York City. 19 I would like to particularly thank 20 Chairman Addabbo for his leadership and for the 21 opportunity to testify. I would like to ask the 22 Chair for his indulgence to allow Drs Ward and 23 Nelson to offer some very brief words about their 24 experience at Jacobi, which I believe will further 25 help illustrate the need for the Employee Free 26 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 Choice Act. We will then be available for any 3 questions you may have. 4 Mr. Chairman, with your permission? 5 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Please. 6 DR. LIEBOWITZ: Are you ready? 7 DR. WARD: Yes. 8 DR. LIEBOWITZ: Introduce yourself. 9 DR. WARD: Yes, I will. 10 Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you 11 for letting us come. I'm Dr. Kathleen Ward and I've 12 worked at Jacobi Medical Center since 1984. I am 13 testifying in support of Resolution 1180 supporting 14 the Employee Free Choice Act, and would like to 15 elaborate briefly on Dr. Liebowitz's testimony, 16 using Jacobi Medical Center as an example of why the 17 right to unionize must have greater protections. 18 The doctors at Jacobi and North 19 Central Bronx Hospitals have been working to form a 20 union for two years. The lack of a union, which 21 would give us a voice, has affected both the 22 patients and the doctors. 23 I worked in the Ambulatory Care 24 Division at the Department of Medicine. Translated 25 that means I work in the clinic where the continuity 27 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 of care is provided for our patients. 3 About 20 years ago we had 20 4 full-time attending physicians in this Division. Now 5 we have ten full-time equivalents. This affects 6 patients' care in two distinct ways: 7 There are fewer attending physicians 8 to give direct patient care to their own patients. 9 In addition, there are fewer 10 attending to supervise the nearly 100 medical 11 residents who provide the majority of patient visits 12 at our clinic. None of the vacancies that have 13 occurred have been filled, and in fact, one salary 14 line went to fund a hospitalist physician, a person 15 who does not work in the clinic. 16 The American Board of Internal 17 Medicine which certifies residency programs requires 18 that one attending be available to supervise five 19 medical residents when in clinic. Now we frequently 20 only have two attendings to supervise 15 or more 21 residents. 22 It is difficult to nearly impossible 23 to give the same attention and supervision of each 24 patient's care when there is a line of residents out 25 the door waiting to present their case. 28 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 Our pleas to our Department for 3 additional staff have been met with the response 4 that there is no money to hire new doctors. We have 5 no other recourse, since we have no union. 6 The doctors at Jacobi and NCB have 7 also not had their pension contributions made in a 8 timely fashion. Our pension contribution from New 9 York Medical Alliance for 2007 has not yet been 10 completed. 11 We have had periods of over one year 12 in the past where no contribution to our pension has 13 been made. We have been told that our pension 14 contribution could be made on time, if we were 15 willing to allow doctor layoffs. Our doctors are 16 dedicated to our patients and our facilities, but we 17 are also spouses and parents who need to provide for 18 our families and our future. 19 We hope that you will endorse 20 Resolution 1180, and support our efforts at Jacobi 21 and North Central. Thank you very much. 22 DR. NELSON: Good afternoon. I'm Dr. 23 Ingrid Nelson, and I work with Dr. Ward at Jacobi 24 and North Central Bronx Hospital, and I'd like to 25 add one story to those she's already told, a story 29 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 that I think illustrates how important it is to us 3 and to our patients that we be permitted to 4 unionize. 5 One problem we're struggling with at 6 Jacobi is how best to provide supervision to the 7 residents on inpatient service in the hospital. 8 New admissions come in 24 hours a 9 day, and attending coverage is stretched pretty 10 thin, especially at nights and on weekends. 11 Last fall, NYMA, the affiliate, told 12 us that they planned to eliminate this coverage all 13 together, in order to save money. We objected. We 14 said that this would have a terrible, a terrible, an 15 adverse affect on patient care and on patient 16 safety. But NYMA was unmoved. We had no further 17 recourse. 18 Ultimately, and ironically, it was 19 the HHC that had to step in and back us up. The 20 insisted that NYMA back down this proposal, and NYMA 21 did. 22 Thank you very much for hearing us 23 out. 24 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Thank you very 25 much. 30 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 Again, let me first thank this panel 3 for the work that they do in the field of health 4 care, especially at Jacobi. Thank you very much for 5 the work that you do. 6 If I'm not mistaken, it was 7 mentioned, I believe by Dr. Ward, the process has 8 been taking roughly two years for the workers to try 9 and organize, doctors trying to organize? 10 DR. LIEBOWITZ: Actually it was much 11 more rapid than that. But it's close to about a 12 year, year and a half at this point. 13 It is interesting when you hear about 14 all these shortages that there seems to be money for 15 lawyers but not patient care. This is still a City 16 hospital. This is still City money. And I would like 17 to know why that door isn't opened? 18 I know it's a season of Passover, all 19 right? So maybe, maybe now. We went through the 20 season of resurrection, and now we're going to go, 21 now we're going to cross the great divide, and we're 22 going to open those gates. Let our people go. They 23 have spoken. We have twisted no arms. We were asked 24 there. And to deny that to your own workers, who are 25 working with, I think we all know, huge shortages, 31 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 working long hours, expected to teach on top of 3 that, maintain records, maintain quality, and to 4 really slap them down is untenable. 5 I want to also follow the money. We 6 have done the FOIL. We're going for the LM 10s I 7 believe, and you know, but what we're willing to 8 say, open the door so we can talk and get an 9 election. We're not even trying to evade that. And 10 not to get any response. I know Dr., Mr. Aviles for 11 a long time. I knew he was Chief Counsel, I knew 12 when he ran, I believe Elmhurst Hospital, and when I 13 spoke to him, I said, Alan, he said we're not the 14 employer. I said, Alan, I walked the Yellow Brick 15 Road, I know, I know who the man is being the 16 curtain, all right? 17 So, I think these doctors deserve the 18 respect of being listened to. And not to pick up a 19 phone, not to return a call, not to in any way react 20 just to open up a process, is I don't know, I could 21 say unconscionable, but it's not the world as I 22 would like to see it. Let me just say it that way. 23 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: You know, 24 Doctor, this panel had mentioned that, you know, 25 because of the current situation, there's been a 32 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 decrease in health care at Jacobi, and obviously 3 that's a major concern. 4 This Committee has taken up health 5 care issues as it relates to labor in the past. 6 Nurses have come in and said that there's been a 7 decrease, obviously, in the industry and that 8 affects directly health care. 9 To be here today, obviously, is much 10 concern to me. Do you feel that the Free Choice Act, 11 once implemented, would increase health care, would 12 help you recruit or help you retain or help you 13 organize in an effort to increase health care? 14 DR. LIEBOWITZ: When you have an 15 organized workforce, they can exert a counterveiling 16 power together. Therefore, fighting for patient care 17 issues is not one lonely voice, it is not just 18 emergency room doctors saying we don't have. It is 19 an entire organized force saying we need. 20 You heard part of the shortages 21 today. We don't need to write what we call a 22 magilla, to say, you know, how many shortages there 23 are, but these doctors also have become, you know -- 24 it's interesting, when you give everything you have 25 and no one says thank you, you get adapted to it. 33 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 These doctors stay overtime. All doctors, whether 3 unionized or not, they stay overtime, all right? And 4 not to say thank you, in some way to appreciate 5 their efforts, so I would tell you that once you 6 have an organized group of physicians you can exert 7 a power, both locally and centrally and politically. 8 We have been up in Albany, we have been up in 9 Washington. We have manned tables at HHC when they 10 were cutting budgets, and we went on the bus, and we 11 worked together. And why to deny us now when the 12 doctors have spoken is beyond my comprehension. 13 I don't know, I see money going out. 14 I see the type of responses and I see how they're 15 drafted, and I know that's not drafted by a doctor, 16 that is legal terminology. So, at least reveal who 17 your attorneys are. They may be more reasonable. 18 So, subsequently, my answer is yes. 19 Allow people to organize, or bring light into dark 20 places and you will find truth there. 21 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Thank you. 22 Before we get to our next question 23 from Council Member Seabrook, I want to welcome 24 Council Member Melissa Mark-Viverito, a member of 25 this Committee. 34 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 Council Member Seabrook and then 3 Council Member Nelson. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER SEABROOK: Thank you. 5 Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It's more after 6 listening to both of these testimonies it's such a 7 sad situation that we see people having to live in, 8 and those hospitals in a sense certainly take all of 9 my constituency, because I represent the northern 10 part of the Bronx. So, they are there. And I'd like 11 to be included on this resolution, and I'm in full 12 support and I think that it's one that we need to 13 pass, and really do what has to be done. 14 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Thank you, 15 Council Member Seabrook. It will be done. 16 Council Member Nelson. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER NELSON: Okay, thank 18 you. For purposes of disclosure, to the best of my 19 knowledge I'm not related to Dr. Nelson. 20 This may be a rhetorical question, 21 but if you were to unionize, the potential of a 22 strike is always there, so I would imagine that 23 still patient care would not be adversely impacted? 24 DR. LIEBOWITZ: Well, let me just say 25 this then. We represent many private entities, or we 35 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 deal with Columbia University, New York University, 3 et cetera. 4 Any contract that you would sign, 5 there could be a no-strike provision. That's part of 6 the dialogue, all right? That's what I remember by 7 opening up the doors so we know what we're talking 8 about. And that's an excellent question, write into 9 that. 10 Also, you should know one thing, that 11 the doctors who are working in Jacobi for so many 12 years have fallen so far behind their counterparts 13 in other parts. We have done the surveys, and 14 because it's individuals, they're not organized, 15 they can't collectively bargain. They can't define 16 their own terms of work. 17 So, I think, I hope that I put your 18 strike question to -- 19 COUNCIL MEMBER NELSON: Yes. 20 DR. LIEBOWITZ: But we have many, 21 many, in all of our private contracts, no-strike 22 clauses, and I think that's the way we would want 23 it, especially in health care. 24 Any further questions? 25 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: No, no. And I 36 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 hope that you part the Red Sea this season with 3 Aviles and Dr. Crain. 4 DR. LIEBOWITZ: There's an old saying 5 that "if you will it, it is no dream." Theodore 6 Hertzel. 7 And we believe we will win this. All 8 we need to get is for them to open up a door. I 9 don't care about the lines and hearts (sic), all 10 right? Open up a door so you talk like a normal 11 person. These are still medical people, and 12 unfortunately, on top there are, like in this 13 affiliation, also a doctor. Where is the 14 collegiality? Where is the discussion? I don't know. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER NELSON: 16 Administrators. 17 MR. LIEBOWITZ: Okay. 18 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Thank you, 19 Council Member Nelson. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER NELSON: Thank you. 21 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Lastly, Kathleen 22 Ward mentioned something that also struck me, is the 23 sense that pensions, or contributions to the 24 pension, were tied into layoffs. Can you elaborate 25 on that? Because that is another area we shouldn't 37 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 be going into, unfortunately. 3 DR. LIEBOWITZ: Well, what is 4 essentially being said to you is that, unless we -- 5 here we have an already injured hospital, where 6 you've lost people, unless we lay off people, we 7 can't meet our pension obligations. 8 It's interesting because pensions 9 fall under a federal guideline, all right? There are 10 things that say that you have to make your four 11 quarterly pensions in one year. You have, at the end 12 of the year you can make it. Here they said no. You 13 know, they missed it and whatever. 14 Theoretically we could go into 15 Federal Court, too, but that's not the point. I 16 don't want to antagonize anybody. They're going to 17 get pensions. I think the Health and Hospital 18 Corporation is going to understand the pressure the 19 doctors have exerted, and will contribute to it, 20 which immediately breaks the illusion that they are 21 not the employer, by the way. You know, as I said, 22 you know, behind the curtain. 23 So, the initial tactic is always 24 we're going to do layoffs, all right? And they could 25 not do that without discussion if they were 38 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 organized. You can't arbitrarily say we're going to 3 lay off the Urology Department, the Ophthalmology 4 Department, the Orthopaedic Department and whatever. 5 You have to come together with the union. The union 6 brings in the doctors. We work it out. This is not 7 the first City Hospital that has had financial 8 difficulty. We have always managed to get through 9 without layoffs, without hurting those people that 10 are delivering care and those people who are 11 receiving care. 12 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Doctor, again, 13 thank you. 14 I want to thank all three doctors for 15 being here today and for their testimony. 16 There being no other questions, 17 again, thank you very much for your time and 18 testimony. 19 DR. LIEBOWITZ: Thank you. 20 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: And hopefully we 21 can take a step in the right direction today and 22 vote Resolution 1180 out of this Committee and onto 23 the full Stated, full Council Members at the Stated 24 Council Meeting in April. 25 DR. LIEBOWITZ: Thank you very much. 39 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Thank you very 3 much. 4 So, at this point I'd like to have a 5 roll call, calling the Committee members for a vote 6 on Resolution 1180. 7 As Chair, I suggest a yes vote for 8 the benefit of not only our workers in general, but 9 our City, as we have heard that, you know, workers' 10 morale and productivity has been negatively or 11 detrimentally affected by obviously not having the 12 right to choose to organize. 13 So, again, I request a roll call at 14 this point. 15 CLERK: Addabbo. 16 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Yes. 17 CLERK: Nelson. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER NELSON: Aye. 19 CLERK: Seabrook. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER SEABROOK: Aye. 21 CLERK: Mark-Viverito. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER MARK-VIVERITO: Aye. 23 CLERK: Okay, we have four in the 24 affirmative, no negative, no abstentions. Resolution 25 1180 passes. 40 1 COMMITTEE ON CIVIL SERVICE AND LABOR 2 CHAIRPERSON ADDABBO: Thank you very 3 much to my colleagues and all those who have put 4 this Committee hearing together. 5 I believe at our next Stated Council 6 Meeting in April, full Council will have a right to 7 vote on this resolution. I firmly believe, 8 especially with the support of Speaker Chris Quinn, 9 who was also a primary sponsor of this, this will go 10 forward. 11 So, hopefully someday we could push 12 Congress to actually enacting this. 13 To those who gave testimony today and 14 to those who are here today, thank you very much for 15 your time. 16 Meeting adjourned. 17 (Hearing concluded at 1:51 p.m.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 41 1 2 CERTIFICATION 3 4 5 STATE OF NEW YORK ) 6 COUNTY OF NEW YORK ) 7 8 9 I, CINDY MILLELOT, a Certified 10 Shorthand Reporter, do hereby certify that the 11 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the 12 within proceeding. 13 I further certify that I am not 14 related to any of the parties to this action by 15 blood or marriage, and that I am in no way 16 interested in the outcome of this matter. 17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 18 set my hand this 31st day of March 2008. 19 20 21 22 23 --------------------- 24 CINDY MILLELOT, CSR. 25 42 1 2 C E R T I F I C A T I O N 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I, CINDY MILLELOT, a Certified Shorthand 10 Reporter and a Notary Public in and for the State of 11 New York, do hereby certify the aforesaid to be a 12 true and accurate copy of the transcription of the 13 audio tapes of this hearing. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ----------------------- CINDY MILLELOT, CSR. 25