1 2 CITY COUNCIL 3 CITY OF NEW YORK 4 -------------------------------x 5 THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE MINUTES 6 of the 7 COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL 8 PROTECTION (Held Jointly With) 9 COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT And INVESTIGATIONS 10 - and - COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION 11 -------------------------------x 12 13 April 29, 2008 Start: 1:17 p.m. 14 Recess: 6:25 p.m. 15 City Hall Council Chambers 16 New York, New York 17 B E F O R E: 18 JAMES GENNARO 19 Chairperson, Environmental Protection Committee 20 ERIC GIOIA 21 Chairperson, Oversight And Investigations Committee 22 ROBERT JACKSON 23 Chairperson, Education Committee 24 LEGAL-EASE COURT REPORTING SERVICES, INC. 17 Battery Place - Suite 1308 25 New York, New York 10004 (800) 756-3410 2 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S 3 COUNCIL MEMBERS: 4 Bill DeBlasio 5 Oliver Koppell Domenic Recchia 6 Peter Vallone, Jr. Melissa Mark-Viverito 7 Thomas White Mathieu Eugene 8 Vincent Ignizio Gale Brewer 9 Jonathan Liu Jessica Lappin 10 Simcha Felder Lewis Fidler 11 Helen Foster Melinda Katz 12 Albert Vann David Yassky 13 Maria del Carmen Arroyo Daniel Garodnick 14 James Vacca 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S (CONTINUED) 3 George Pavlou 4 Deputy Regional Administrator Designee U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Region 2 5 Daniel Kraft 6 Chief Toxic Substance Section U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Region 2 7 Kathleen Grimm 8 Deputy Chancellor, Finance and Administration NYC Department of Education 9 Sharon Greenberger 10 President NYC School Construction Authority 11 Jessica Leighton, Ph.D, M.P.H. 12 Deputy Commissioner for Environmental Health NYC Department of Health and Mental Hygiene 13 Ross Holden 14 Vice President and General Counsel NYC School Construction Authority 15 Randi Weingarten 16 President United Federation of Teachers 17 Chris Proctor 18 United Federation of Teachers 19 Robert F. Herrick Harvard School of Public Health 20 George Weymouth 21 Dr. John Tharakan 22 Professor of Engineering Howard University 23 Patty Donegan 24 Anjali Kochar 25 4 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S (CONTINUED) 3 Veronica Vanterpool 4 Kimberly Norton 5 Dave Palmer 6 Staff Attorney New York Lawyers for the Public Interest, Inc. 7 Miranda Massie 8 Senior Staff Attorney New York Lawyers for the Public Interest, Inc. 9 Daniel Lefkowitz, DPM 10 Stephanie Tyree 11 Sustainable Policy Coordinator West Harlem Environmental Action 12 Joseph Mugivan 13 Advocate for School Indoor Air Quality 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, ready? 3 Good afternoon, and welcome. I'm Councilman Jim 4 Gennaro, Chair of the Committee on Environmental 5 Protection. I'm joined by Robert Jackson, Chairman 6 of the Committee on Education. We'll be joined 7 shortly by Eric Gioia, Chairman of the Committee on 8 Oversight, and the members of all three Committees 9 will be joining us. 10 Today's hearing follows a series of 11 articles in the New York Daily News about a toxic 12 substance detected in caulking in New York City 13 schools, a substance that is so harmful -- I should 14 turn my cell phone off, right? -- So harmful that 15 it's been banned for the past 30 years as a possible 16 carcinogen. 17 It's the only substance mentioned by 18 name in the federal Toxic Substances Control Act and 19 is a substance about which there is a plethora of 20 literature about adverse human health impacts, 21 particularly in children. Of course, the substance 22 is PCB, Polychlorinated Biphenyls, which are manmade 23 chemicals that were added to a number of substances. 24 They were added to caulk, to make it more flexible, 25 to make it stick, to make it stay. And PCBs are 6 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 persistent pollutants, and take a long time to 3 degrade. 4 PCBs in caulk can also volatilize and 5 migrate. PCBs, as I said, are probable carcinogens 6 and neurotoxins. 7 Unlike asbestos, it can't just be 8 left alone when discovered in and around children's 9 schools. 10 It should be removed. There are 200 11 -- well, it is reported that there are 266 schools 12 constructed before 1977 when PCBs were banned, and 13 the role of the environmental agencies is to protect 14 public health in the environment. At a minimum, we 15 should be protecting our children in schools. 16 We are here today to hear from the 17 Administration, who certainly has given this a lot 18 of thought, and the EPA, scientists, advocates and 19 parents, about the hazardous pollutant in our 20 children's schools and what steps are contemplated 21 and appropriate to look into this situation. 22 My own position that I first put 23 forward when I heard about this, that a necessary 24 first step would be to go directly to schools right 25 away, schools that were built or modified before 7 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 1977, and do a physical inspection of all the 3 caulking in those schools, because the caulking of 4 that age we can reasonably assume to include PCBs, 5 and if they had caulking that it was in a condition 6 that was in a condition where it was crumbling, or 7 peeling or flaking, what we called friable, then 8 that is a situation that we should speak to right 9 away, get that out and that I thought was certainly 10 a necessary first step in terms of doing triage to 11 get at the situation. Get at the pre-1977 caulking, 12 find out where it's cracking, peeling and flaking, 13 and get it out safely. And, of course, the 14 Administration has indicated they have no desire to 15 do that. Perhaps they have changed their policy 16 since I first called for this. We will hear from 17 them today about that. 18 So, I look forward to a lively 19 hearing on a very, very important topic. 20 We're going to be hearing from 21 Chairman Jackson in a moment. I just have to speak 22 to a little housekeeping in that not only are we 23 having an oversight on this topic, but my Committee, 24 the Committee on Environmental Protection, has to 25 quickly vote out two bills. Once we get a quorum of 8 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 the Committee, we will be recessing for just two 3 minutes, just to cast a vote on those two bills and 4 then we will continue with the hearing. 5 I just want to give you that little 6 bit of housekeeping. 7 I'd like to call upon Chairman Robert 8 Jackson for a statement and then I will identify the 9 other members of the Council who have joined us, 10 after Counsel makes his statement, and we do a 11 little more housekeeping, we will have our first 12 panel, which is the Federal EPA, and we're grateful 13 to have them. 14 Council Member Jackson. 15 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Thank you. Thank 16 you, my colleague, Jim Gennaro. 17 Good afternoon. Let me just say that 18 today's joint hearing on PCBs in schools by the 19 Environmental Protection, Oversight and 20 Investigations and Education Committees, as my 21 fellow Chairperson previously noted, we are here 22 today because an investigation by the New York Daily 23 News, which revealed the presence of PCBs in 24 caulking around windows and doors in eight out of 25 nine schools that were tested. Six of these schools 9 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 contain levels of PCBs considered unsafe, according 3 to federal standards. 4 Unfortunately, this is certain not to 5 be just the tip of the iceberg. This is certain to 6 be just the tip of the iceberg, since there are 266 7 public schools in the City of New York built or 8 renovated in the 1960s and '70s, when PCBs were a 9 common ingredient of caulking used in construction. 10 In response to the New York Daily 11 News investigation, the Department of Investigation 12 conducted further tests on samples of air, dust and 13 in some cases soil at the eight schools where PCBs 14 were found by the Daily News. 15 The Department of Education found 16 higher levels of PCBs than federal standards allow 17 at two schools, IS 181 in the Bronx, and where PCBs 18 were found in the soil outside the school, and at PS 19 199 in Manhattan, which had PCBs in indoor air and 20 dust as well as outdoor soil samples. 21 Parents and teachers at PS 199 were 22 especially outraged, since recent renovation work at 23 the school left behind so much dust that teachers 24 and students had to wipe off classroom surfaces 25 themselves every day for about ten days, and they 10 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 were concerned about the potential impact on their 3 health from exposure to these toxins. 4 While the Department of Education has 5 taken steps to remove the PCB contamination at these 6 two schools, they have so far refused to even test 7 for the presence of PCBs at the remainder of the 266 8 schools built or renovated in the 1960s and '70s. 9 Instead, the Department of Education claims that PCB 10 in caulking is harmless if left alone, and their 11 policy is to remove it only when renovations are 12 needed at a school. 13 This is absolutely unacceptable. This 14 policy presumes that normal deterioration and 15 crumbling of caulking over time from exposure to 16 weather or dryness poses no danger to people, which 17 flies in the face of what experts say. 18 The Department of Education says that 19 the School Construction Authority treats all 20 caulking in buildings constructed before 1985, as if 21 it contained PCBs, but clearly those procedures 22 weren't good enough at PS 199 if teachers and 23 students were cleaning up dust for ten days after 24 windows and caulk were removed and replaced. 25 PCBs are considered a hazardous 11 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 substance by the federal government, and owners of 3 buildings with unacceptable PCB levels are subject 4 to federal fines of thousands of dollars per day 5 until the toxic material is removed. 6 For some reason the Department of 7 Education believes that this policy does not apply 8 when it comes to PCB presence in school buildings, 9 which, in my opinion, is absurd. 10 As mentioned earlier by my colleague, 11 exposure to PCBs has been linked to both cancer and 12 asthma. The potential effect on children are far 13 worse than adults. PCBs are considered developmental 14 toxins, which can interfere with normal growth and 15 development. 16 Exposure of young children to PCBs 17 has also been linked with lower IQs, anti-social 18 behavior, depression, and symptoms of Attention 19 Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, commonly known as 20 ADHD or ADD. In fact, some researchers believe 21 exposure to PCBs is responsible for the increase in 22 the number of children with ADD and ADHD in recent 23 years. 24 All of us are concerned about the 25 health of the City's children and youth; however, 12 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 the Department of Education thinks that the best 3 cause of action is to leave in place PCBs in 4 caulking around windows and doors in school 5 buildings until such time as renovations are needed. 6 Further, the Department of Education 7 has no plans to check the conditions of the caulking 8 or the level of PCB toxins at the affected schools. 9 In short, the Department of Education 10 wants us to quote/unquote trust them, that there is 11 no risk to the health and safety of children and 12 staff of 266 schools from PCB contamination. 13 Unfortunately, in post-9/11 New York 14 City we have seen far too many people become ill or 15 die from exposure to chemicals after officials 16 assured the public that there was no danger. 17 We cannot afford to gamble with the 18 health and well-being of 1.1 million school children 19 or the teachers, principals and other staff that 20 work in New York City public schools. 21 We're here today to get additional 22 information from the Department of Education and 23 other City agencies with regard to the response to 24 PCB contamination found in schools thus far, and 25 plans to address possible wider contamination. 13 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 In addition to answers to these and 3 other important questions, we will also hear 4 testimony from experts on PCBs, as well as unions, 5 advocates and others regarding their concerns. 6 Because we have members from three 7 committees and three agencies to question, I ask my 8 colleagues to limit their questions to no more than 9 five minutes so that we can move the agenda. 10 Now, without further ado, I would 11 like to turn it back over to Jim Gennaro for 12 introductions of our colleagues this afternoon. 13 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 14 Chairman Jackson. 15 Happy to be joined by Council Members 16 Recchia, Fidler, Lew, Lappin, Ignizio, Vacca, 17 Eugene, Mark-Viverito, Katz I think, okay, Katz, and 18 -- 19 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Peter Vallone, 20 Jr., over there. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Peter Vallone, 22 Jr. Peter Vallone, Jr. 23 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: But, Jim, let me 24 just say that we've also been joined by, I call him 25 an honorary City Council Member, Patrick Kiterack, 14 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 right behind us. He's a City Council member from 3 Lester, England. The city's population is about a 4 half a million, and he's the Regeneration and 5 Transportation Committee in the City of Lester, 6 England. 7 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Welcome, 8 Patrick. 9 And just on a personal note before we 10 introduce our first panel, today is April 29th, what 11 would have been my mother's 80th birthday, my 12 mother, a blessed memory. I dedicate my activities 13 today and this hearing to her memory. And let me 14 introduce our first panel. 15 We have George Pavlou from the US 16 EPA, and it's my understanding that Mr. Pavlou is 17 soon to take over the position of Deputy Region 2 18 Administrator. 19 Thank you very much for being here. 20 Daniel Kraft is also here as well. 21 They will be giving a presentation. I would like to 22 ask the Counsel to the Committee, Samara Swanston, 23 to administer the oath to the witnesses. It's the 24 practice of this Committee to swear in all of the 25 witnesses that come before it. So, Samara, you're on 15 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 to administer the oath to the witnesses. Once again, 3 I thank you very much for being here, and I look 4 forward to your good testimony. 5 MS. SWANSTON: Hi. 6 Would you raise your right hands. 7 Do you swear or affirm to tell the 8 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth 9 today? 10 COLLECTIVELY: Yes. 11 (Witnesses sworn.) 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. Thank 13 you. 14 Please proceed. Do the witnesses have 15 written testimony? 16 MR. PAVLOU: We have a statement. 17 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: A statement, 18 okay. 19 Yes, the Sergeant will distribute the 20 statement. And make sure your microphone is working 21 properly and speak directly into it. 22 If I could have the statement of the 23 witnesses, please. 24 Mr. Pavlou, if you could just wait 25 until your statement has been distributed so we 16 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 could follow along. 3 MR. PAVLOU: Okay, thank you very 4 much. 5 Good afternoon. Should I wait? 6 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: No, I just want 7 to have the statement in front of me so I can follow 8 along. 9 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: We've been 10 joined by Co-chair Eric Gioia, the Chair of the 11 Investigations Oversight Committee. He's right 12 behind us. Council Member Gioia, do you want to say 13 something? 14 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: No, Chair Jackson. 15 I don't want to take up any more time, I want to get 16 to the facts. I think there are a lot of parents and 17 people across the City who are concerned about this. 18 I think the best way to get started is just to get 19 the facts out there. So, thank you very much. 20 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Thank you. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. Thank 22 you, Chairman Gioia. 23 Okay, we're almost there. Getting 24 very close. 25 Okay, thank you. Please commence. 17 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MR. PAVLOU: Good afternoon, Mr. 3 Chairman. I'm George Pavlou, Deputy Regional 4 Administrator Designee for EPA Region 2. To my left 5 sits Dan Kraft, who is in charge of regulating PCBs 6 in EPA Region 2 as well. 7 Thank you for the invitation to 8 appear here today to discuss the issue of 9 polychlorinated biphenyls, or otherwise known as 10 PCBs, in caulk, and the actions we are taking to 11 address PCBs in caulk in school buildings. 12 We suspect many City schools have 13 caulk that contains PCBs, and it is important that 14 we take steps to ensure our children are being 15 protected. 16 Over the past 30 years, EPA has used 17 a range of approaches to protect the public from 18 exposure to PCBs from many sources. EPA Region 2 has 19 primary responsibility for ensuring the proper use 20 and management of PCBs in New York State. 21 One important focus for EPA is to 22 reduce or eliminate the potential health risks posed 23 by PCB caulk to children and school personnel. 24 PCBs were widely used in hundreds of 25 industrial and commercial applications from the 18 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 1940s until 1979, when they were largely banned in 3 the United States due to concerns about health and 4 environmental effects. 5 PCBs were used in caulk in some 6 buildings, including schools, during the 1950s 7 through the 1970s. 8 This caulk is what is commonly found 9 around windows, doors, and in masonry expansion 10 joints. PCBs make the caulk flexible. Based on 11 information we have, caulk may have been formulated 12 with PCBs at concentrations up to 30 percent by 13 weight, or 300,000 parts per million. The Agency 14 does not have information about what proportion of 15 the total caulk market was PCB caulk, nor do we have 16 information about whether the PCB caulk was used for 17 a specific niche market within all possible caulk 18 applications. Buildings built after 1980 are much 19 less likely to have PCB caulk. 20 Unless specifically authorized in the 21 PCB regulations, the Toxic Substances Control Act 22 prohibits use of PCBs that are not totally enclosed. 23 While current federal PCB regulations 24 allow certain PCB containing products to remain in 25 place, if PCB concentrations are less than 50 parts 19 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 per million, and specifically authorizes some uses 3 of PCBs at concentrations above 50 parts per 4 million, caulk containing PCBs at 50 parts per 5 million or higher is not an authorized use under the 6 regulations. 7 Caulk that contains PCBs at 8 concentrations at or above 50 parts per million is 9 considered -- 10 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Sir, you passed 11 over a line in your statement -- 12 MR. PAVLOU: I will put that at the 13 appropriate place. I didn't pass it, I will mention 14 that. 15 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Fine. 16 MR. PAVLOU: I thought that was not 17 the appropriate place for me to say that. 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. 19 MR. PAVLOU: Caulk that contains PCBs 20 at concentrations at or above 50 parts per million 21 is considered by EPA to be a PCB bulk product waste. 22 This waste is regulated for disposal 23 under the federal PCB regulations and in New York 24 State must be disposed of as a hazardous waste. 25 EPA has found that the PCBs can move 20 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 into surrounding materials directly in contact with 3 the caulk, such as brick or concrete. 4 The materials that become 5 contaminated by PCBs released from the caulk, 6 including any soil that might be contaminated by 7 PCBs from crumbling caulk or caulk dust, are 8 considered by EPA to be PCB remediation waste. 9 PCB remediation waste must also be 10 handled and disposed of in compliance with state and 11 federal requirements, the specific clean-up levels 12 vary depending on the potential for exposure, and 13 could be as low as 1 part per million. 14 Frequent contact with PCB-containing 15 caulk or surfaces near such caulk can pose a risk of 16 exposure to PCBs. This is particularly true when the 17 caulk becomes disturbed such as during a building 18 renovation, especially when windows are replaced. 19 EPA has created a web page on PCBs in 20 caulk, which can be found at 21 www.epa.gov/pcb/pubs/caulk.htm, and we are 22 developing a brochure and a series of fact sheets on 23 the safe management and disposal of PCB-containing 24 caulk. 25 We are also working very closely with 21 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 the New York State Department of Health, the New 3 York State Department of Environmental Conservation, 4 the New York City Department of Health and Mental 5 Hygiene, and the New York City Department of 6 Education to discuss this matter and to obtain 7 information about PCBs present in New York City 8 schools. 9 Once we have reviewed the information 10 provided by the Department of Education, we will be 11 able to assist the Department in developing an 12 appropriate course of action. 13 However, based on the limited number 14 of schools tested in the New York City Department of 15 Education, we do not see a significant risk at this 16 point. 17 In conclusion, I would like to 18 emphasize that EPA will continue to work closely 19 with the appropriate State and City agencies to 20 address PCBs in caulk found in schools in New York 21 City and throughout our region. 22 Thank you, again. For the opportunity 23 to address the Committee. I would be glad to answer 24 any questions, you know, you may have. 25 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. Thank 22 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 you. 3 I'm a little confused and a little 4 concerned. Let me just go through your statement. I 5 have my own questions that I personally prepared and 6 I have some questions that staff had prepared, but 7 let me just go through your statement for a moment, 8 just to take a look at some of the things that have 9 me confused here. 10 Now, according to your statement that 11 PCB concentrations above 50 PPM is not an authorized 12 use under the regulations. And so, if we -- now, 13 there is a reason for that, of course, that PCBs at 14 50 PPM or higher, are not authorized, and we know 15 that we have that situation, so how can you say that 16 there is not a significant risk, when by your own 17 statement it's a very limited number of schools 18 tested? 19 MR. PAVLOU: The 50 parts per million 20 is a regulatory number, in terms of, you know, when 21 the agency is going to be regulating the use of 22 PCBs, as well as the safe disposal of the PCBs. 23 What I said in my testimony was that 24 based on the limited number of schools tested by the 25 Department of Education, and reviewing that data 23 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 that was provided to us for those schools that got 3 tested, which were about ten, I believe, or so. 4 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. 5 MR. PAVLOU: I did not see anything in 6 there, you know, be it in terms of the air samples 7 that they collected, which was an appropriate, you 8 know, response activity on the Department of 9 Education to go there and sample the air to find out 10 whether or not it is available in the breathing 11 zone, in the breathing area -- 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. 13 MR. PAVLOU: -- For someone to inhale 14 the PCBs, those numbers were mostly non-detectable 15 levels that they found. 16 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. 17 MR. PAVLOU: So, there was no health 18 risk associated with those non-detectable levels for 19 that limited number of schools tested. 20 At the same time, in terms of the 21 dust, I believe there were some isolated, you know, 22 marginally elevated levels of, you know, PCBs in 23 dust, and the Department of Education acted promptly 24 in going and removing and cleaning up those schools 25 for those two levels. So, overall, on the basis of 24 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 that limited data that we have in front of us, I can 3 make a statement that the results from the City that 4 were provided to us, they did not represent a 5 significant risk. 6 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. Well, let 7 me give you another sample of limited data. 8 There is a mother and father in the 9 room here whose son had a respiratory condition, and 10 as a result of that respiratory condition, they used 11 one of these desk top kind of like air purifiers 12 that was only used in the school situation. It 13 wasn't taken home and it was left in the school and 14 used only in the school, and, of course, the air 15 purifier, the filter, is filtering the air in the 16 classroom, the parents at their own expense went and 17 took the filter to a chemical laboratory for a 18 detailed analysis and it was chock full of PCBs, so 19 much so that the lab that tested it indicated to the 20 parents that this filter now represents hazardous 21 waste and it has to be disposed of accordingly. 22 And, so, and I think one of the 23 things that's going to be uncovered by this hearing 24 is that when people make statements on very, very 25 limited information, and you know, draw conclusions, 25 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 I think that's a problem. And I think one of the 3 things we're going to see and call for, and what I 4 think may be ultimately called for by EPA, because 5 as I understand it, we're a little bit like a 6 regulatory no man's land, whereby if you're a school 7 system and you find PCBs, if you test for it and 8 find that it's there, then you have to remove it. 9 And there's a reason why you have to remove it. 10 So, right now, you know, regulatory 11 lay of the land seems to be, we're concerned if you 12 find it, but we're not going to make you look for 13 it. So, is that a fair assessment? Is that a fair 14 statement? 15 MR. PAVLOU: Well, let me express it 16 the way I understood you were saying. And starting 17 from the parent in the auditorium here that, you 18 know, found PCBs in their filter, you mentioned. 19 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes. 20 MR. PAVLOU: You know, some device 21 there that filtered it. 22 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes. 23 MR. PAVLOU: Well, to tell you the 24 truth, that data by itself does not signify a health 25 risk, because it's all a matter of what's in the air 26 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 that somebody may be breathing in themselves. For us 3 to allow us to make a determination whether or not 4 there is a significant immediate risk or a 5 significant, you know, health risk. So, without us 6 knowing what the appropriate air exchange rates were 7 in that room, you know, I cannot really make a 8 definitive determination, as a technical person for 9 EPA. 10 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I understand. 11 Let me go on because I want to move to my questions. 12 MR. PAVLOU: Sure. 13 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: We have two 14 other persons and we have other members that wish to 15 speak. 16 Now, at the outset of your statement 17 you indicated that the EPA Region 2 has primary 18 responsibility for the proper use and management of 19 PCBs in New York State, and so the buck stops with 20 you, and you make statements in here about -- I'm 21 reading from your statement, "frequent contact with 22 PCB containing caulk, or surfaces near such caulk, 23 can pose a risk of exposure to PCBs. It is 24 particularly true when caulk becomes disturbed, such 25 as during a building renovation, particularly when 27 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 the windows are replaced." 3 Now, do you have knowledge of the 4 protocols that are used by the School Construction 5 Authority when windows are replaced? 6 Is there a requirement that before 7 PCBs are disturbed through a window replacement they 8 have to be tested and cleaned up appropriately? What 9 are the protocols that would govern that? And you 10 would be, you, meaning EPA, would be the regulator 11 in that process, correct? 12 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. I mean, we are 13 regulating PCBs in Region 2, in terms of their 14 exposure, in terms of their, you know, appropriate 15 disposal, yes. 16 And there are methodologies to test 17 -- 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I'm not 19 concerned with methodologies. What I'm concerned 20 about is that in your role as regulator for PCBs in 21 New York State, in New York City school system, when 22 it disturbs PCBs in old school buildings by 23 replacing windows, is it your agency that makes sure 24 that the appropriate protocols are being used so 25 when those PCBs are disturbed, they are not causing 28 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 a real hazard; would that be your agency? 3 MR. PAVLOU: Our agency, we're only 4 concerned about protecting human health in the 5 environment. 6 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I really need 7 you to answer the questions. 8 MR. PAVLOU: I'm trying to answer the 9 question. 10 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. 11 MR. PAVLOU: I'm not sure I understand 12 wholly what you are saying. 13 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Let me repeat 14 the question. 15 To repeat the question is that there 16 are window replacements in old schools in New York 17 City where there is caulk that contains PCBs, and so 18 when the Department of Education, you know, through 19 the School Construction Authority, replaces windows, 20 and disturbs a lot of PCB-containing caulk, what are 21 the protocols that are used to make sure that that 22 renovation is not creating a toxic release of PCBs 23 into the school environment? 24 MR. PAVLOU: This is an area where the 25 agency is developing those protocols, you know, as 29 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 we speak. And we believe in the near term we should 3 be able to provide that guidance, as I mentioned in 4 my testimony, in terms of the safe management of 5 those PCBs. And the guidance, we're going to be 6 preparing fact sheets as well, in terms of how do 7 you properly assess the PCBs, how do you properly 8 dispose of them, how do you properly take interim 9 measures, and how do you ultimately safely dispose 10 of them. 11 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. 12 But right now -- 13 MR. PAVLOU: Right. 14 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: If there is a 15 school renovation on a school that was built in 16 1970, and if that renovation, if that window 17 placement is going on today, does the EPA have a say 18 and do they formally require that a certain protocol 19 that testing be done before the PCBs are disturbed, 20 if they're found to contain PCBs, then a certain 21 protocol has to be used in order to limit the dust 22 that would come from taking out those PCBs, and 23 there is a post window replacement clean-up that has 24 to happen. 25 MR. PAVLOU: We have no protocols. 30 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: You have no 3 protocols. 4 MR. PAVLOU: We have no protocols, 5 however, we did review the protocols that were 6 published by the New York State Department of 7 Education, and we concur with them in terms of how 8 do you manage PCB containing waste, you know, 9 especially PCBs and caulk. 10 Now, there are no current statutory 11 requirements -- 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: And, so, we 13 should -- so regarding the protocols that are used, 14 I guess we'll wait for the Department of Education 15 and School Construction Authority, because you 16 indicate that that is what they go by. 17 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. But at the same time 18 there is a lot of professional judgment that goes 19 into these things, even though we have no protocols. 20 I mean, we like to work cooperatively 21 with the New York State, you know, officials, be it 22 the Department of Environmental Conservation, the 23 Department of Health, we want to work cooperatively 24 with the New York City Department of Education, the 25 New York City Department of Health, such that we 31 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 together come up with some viable mechanisms of how 3 to properly address this and come up with some 4 practical and pragmatic solutions on how you address 5 these things. That's what we want to do in the 6 absence of protocols from EPA. 7 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. So, in the 8 absence of protocols, one thing that I had put 9 forward, which would seem to be consistent with your 10 statement that when you have PCBs that are cracking, 11 friable, peeling, crumbling, that that, you know, 12 could represent a release point of PCBs into the 13 school environment. 14 And wouldn't it be appropriate for 15 the School Construction Authority and the Department 16 of Education to commence immediately a physical 17 inspection of caulking in buildings that we can 18 reasonable assume contains PCBs because of its age, 19 and check for those kinds of crumbling, peeling, 20 flaking conditions, and immediately remove that 21 caulking from schools as sort of like a first order 22 of triage; do you believe that that is an 23 appropriate and necessary and immediate first step 24 that should be taken? 25 MR. PAVLOU: Let's put it this way, we 32 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 would work together with the City to address those, 3 you know, schools where there may be a suspicion 4 that the caulk used there was put in place in the 5 1950s, between the 1950s and the 1970s. Like I said, 6 we want to work, you know, cooperatively with them 7 to establish an overall program on how to address 8 this issue because there is no regulatory 9 requirement for, you know, owners of buildings, 10 including the New York City Department of Education 11 to do that testing. 12 Our regulation is to not require the 13 testing of PCBs in caulk. However, if you do have 14 knowledge that there are PCBs in the caulk, then our 15 recommendation would be that we work together and 16 they come up either with interim measures that they 17 can take, be it in resealing the caulk, painting 18 over the caulk, taping the caulk, to address that on 19 an interim measure, while they prepare a long-term 20 management plan for that. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Well, I mean, 22 this is why people get a little impatient with 23 government. We have PCBs that have been illegal 24 since 1977. We have had them in the school since 25 them, and here it is 31 years later, we're still 33 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 grappling with the problem for which we have no 3 protocols. And even in the face of PCB containing 4 caulk being in the schools, something as simple as a 5 physical inspection of the caulking that is 6 obviously damaged and is, in fact, releasing PCBs 7 into the school environment by virtue of your own 8 statement that there is no protocol going on -- you 9 know, that should be of concern to you, as the, you 10 know, regulator of record for PCBs in New York City. 11 It should be certainly a concern with the School 12 Construction Authority and the Department of 13 Education, but we'll get to them in time. 14 And it's my understanding that if a 15 parent goes into a school, takes a piece of caulking 16 that they found in a window frame or a door jam and 17 takes it and has it tested, and that caulking holds 18 more than the threshold amount permitted by EPA, 19 that triggers an action where that caulking has to 20 be removed, correct? 21 MR. PAVLOU: If they do test the caulk 22 and they do find the PCBs above the 50 parts per 23 million, yes, there is a regulatory requirement on 24 the part of the building owner to come up with a 25 long-term plan in terms of addressing that, because 34 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 I said -- 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Not removed? 4 Just a plan? 5 MR. PAVLOU: It could be -- it all 6 depends on the condition of the caulk. If it's 7 peeling, if it's deteriorating, then obviously you 8 need some kind of an interim measure, either to 9 isolate the caulk, you know, from people getting 10 exposed to it, or coming up with a long-term plan to 11 remove that caulk if it exceeds the 50 parts per 12 million, and you have the data indicating that. 13 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: So, here we are 14 in a syndrome here where it is the position of EPA 15 not to require testing, but if testing is done and 16 caulking is found to contain -- woops, Domenic, 17 don't go. We're going to have the vote right now. I 18 think I lost Domenic. 19 As I indicated we have a little bit 20 of house -- we're losing some members of the 21 Committee on Environmental Protection, so we're 22 going to just very, very briefly take a vote of the 23 members. We'll take a vote of the members of the 24 Committee on Environmental Protection. 25 We will be voting on Intro. 395-A, 35 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 which is to create the long-term planning and 3 sustainability office to perpetuate that to require 4 that, of course, we have one now, but the City would 5 always have to have one under this law. There is 6 another bill and a related resolution, which would 7 correct a technical problem with Local Law 55 of 8 2007, which was the New York City Climate Protection 9 Act of 2007, a bill that I authored. 10 Is there a number associated with 11 that? Okay. Okay, so the correction on the Climate 12 Protection Act is a preconsidered intro and a 13 preconsidered reso which will be given a number 14 tomorrow and this would be made retroactive to when 15 the Mayor signed in 2007, Climate Protection Act, is 16 simply a technical correction. And the Bloomberg 17 Administration has a supportive statement on Intro. 18 395-A, which for the purposes of just getting onto 19 the record, I can read it onto the record later, we 20 don't necessarily have to do it right now. 21 MS. SWANSTON: Okay. 22 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: And, so, with 23 that said, I would like the clerk to call the roll 24 for the members of the Committee on Environmental 25 Protection for the coupled vote that I just 36 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 described. 3 Clerk, please call the roll. 4 COUNCIL CLERK: Gennaro. 5 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes. 6 COUNCIL CLERK: Recchia. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER RECCHIA: Aye. 8 COUNCIL CLERK: Vallone. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER VALLONE: Aye. 10 COUNCIL CLERK: Mark-Viverito. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER MARK-VIVERITO: Aye. 12 COUNCIL CLERK: Eugene. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER EUGENE: Aye. 14 COUNCIL CLERK: Ignizio. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER IGNIZIO: Yes, I vote 16 aye, but I would like to be added as a sponsor to 17 395-A with the sponsor's permission, and just point 18 out, if I may, that the creation of an office does 19 cost something, so for a fiscal note to be speaking 20 to zero, with regards to creation of an office, I 21 think is something that needs to be reviewed. 22 COUNCIL CLERK: By a vote of six on 23 the affirmative, zero in the negative and no 24 abstentions, all items have been adopted. Members 25 please sign the Committee reports. 37 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Thank you. 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 4 members of the Committee, for your vote. 5 What we're going to do is we will be 6 leaving the record open. We will be leaving the 7 record open for other members of the Committee on 8 Environmental Protection, and the comments from the 9 member from Staten Island are duly noted, are 10 certainly duly noted, and I would ask the Finance 11 staff to look at the financial assessment, which 12 would associate a zero cost to this initiative, 13 which presumably has some cost. 14 Okay, thank you, and thank everyone 15 for their indulgence as we do this little piece. 16 And I was just -- and just to 17 follow-up my question of the lack of standards and 18 the lack of testing, what it seems like we have 19 here, what is apparent that we have here is, is a 20 policy whereby if we did the testing and found PCBs 21 over 50 PPM, and by your own statement there is 22 caulking on the market that may be as high as 23 300,000 PPM, and I can't even figure out how many 24 orders of magnitude that is above 50, and we have, 25 you know, presumably crumbling caulking that could 38 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 be easily physically inspected, and in addition to 3 that, we have window replacement going on all the 4 time in New York City, that for all you know, those 5 window replacement jobs may or may not be using 6 protocols that would protect the school environment, 7 and so it's difficult for me, you know, with all due 8 respect, to say that the EPA is the ultimate 9 regulator of PCBs in New York State is really doing 10 what it is supposed to be doing if we're in a 11 situation where windows are being replaced and there 12 may or may not be any protocols being used to 13 protect the school environment from the release of 14 PCBs, nor is the EPA mandating even the most 15 rudimentary physical inspection of the caulking to 16 make sure that in the New York City schools there is 17 not a direct release of PCBs into the school 18 environment. And I would posit that your role as a 19 regulator is to create the necessary regulatory 20 protocols to protect the public, and in the absence 21 of a final protocol to be working assiduously with 22 the local authorities on things like window 23 replacement, on things like crumbling caulking to 24 make sure that whatever they're doing is okay with 25 you, and that's not happening and that is a real 39 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 shame. 3 MR. PAVLOU: Okay, let me be very 4 clear. If you do test for PCBs in caulk and they 5 exceed 50 parts per million, the regulation dictates 6 that they be removed. 7 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Removed. 8 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. 9 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Because before 10 you just said that if it's more than 50 PPM you have 11 to come up with a plan for managing it. Now you're 12 saying that more than PPM has to be removed. 13 MR. PAVLOU: That would be the 14 management plan. 15 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: What's that? 16 MR. PAVLOU: That would be the 17 management plan. 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. You should 19 have said that. 20 MR. PAVLOU: Either, you know, taking, 21 you know, interim measures, you know, to protect, 22 you know, until such time that, you know, you remove 23 the windows, and, you know, you mitigate, you know, 24 the exposure during, you know, the removal action of 25 those windows. 40 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. 3 MR. PAVLOU: But at the same time I'm 4 going to make it very clear that the mere fact that 5 you're find PCBs above 50 parts per million in 6 caulk, doesn't necessarily equate with a health risk 7 or a health hazard at that point in time. 8 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes. And this 9 will be my last before I pass it on to colleagues. 10 MR. PAVLOU: Right. 11 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: But certainly, 12 certainly it would be the case, if there is a window 13 replacement job, and the window replacement job was 14 in a school that has PCB-containing caulk, and there 15 is not the appropriate protocols being used, that 16 would create in your judgment, you know, wouldn't 17 that create a release of large quantities of PCBs 18 into the school environment, just this act of taking 19 out the old caulk, and putting in the new windows, 20 where if you didn't use the appropriate protocols, 21 you would be creating a real hazardous situation. 22 So, maybe the situation is we should 23 look not first at the schools that might have 24 crumbling caulking, maybe it's the schools that had 25 crumbling and caulking last year, but had a window 41 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 replacement in the interim and now has all brand new 3 caulking, but still has the residue from that window 4 replacement job. Isn't that a concern here, sir? 5 MR. PAVLOU: It is a concern of ours, 6 and that's part of the reason why we're extending a 7 hand, and we want to work cooperatively with the 8 City and the State to come up with those, you know, 9 situations where when you do remove the windows from 10 these buildings that you take very possible steps or 11 actions to minimize, you know, exposure to the 12 surrounding area, as well as, you know, avoid 13 contaminating the surrounding area. That is all 14 concern to us, but at the same time, you know, I'm 15 saying that we are preparing and developing guidance 16 that would address that issue and that should be 17 publicly available on EPA's web page in the near 18 term, and at the same time to meet with our partners 19 the City and the State and come up with practical 20 solutions on how to address this, that, you know, 21 would use the best engineering practices, the best 22 housekeeping practices, as well. 23 That's all part of the interaction 24 between us and the City and the State. 25 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. Thank 42 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 you. I would go on, but we have two other 3 Chairpeople with us, and I would like to recognize 4 Chairman Eric Gioia. 5 Chairman Gioia. 6 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Thank you, Mr. 7 Chairman. 8 I have to say, I came here very much 9 with an open mind waiting for your testimony, but 10 I'm concerned that your testimony is, it's leading 11 me to conclude that it's just another toothless 12 federal watchdog, a federal regulator that is not 13 regulating. 14 In 1977, PCBs were outlawed, correct? 15 MR. PAVLOU: That's correct. 16 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: It's the one 17 substance that was named significantly in the 18 Federal Toxic Substance Control Act, correct? 19 MR. PAVLOU: Well, there's more. Lots 20 more. 21 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Specifically 22 mentioned? 23 MR. PAVLOU: Well, the Toxic 24 Substances Control Act, you know, controls all 25 toxics -- 43 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: But PCBs is the 3 one that was specifically mentioned, right? 4 MR. PAVLOU: It regulates PCBs. 5 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: All right. 6 Now, I'm 35 years old. I've done a 7 lot in 35 years. In 31 years, how is it that you 8 don't have a new protocol to remove these from 9 schools? 10 MR. PAVLOU: Because this is an 11 emerging issue. It's not an issue that we new about 12 this, you know, 30 years ago. 13 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: But you did, 14 right? I mean, we knew that PCBs were in caulk. 15 MR. PAVLOU: Right. 16 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: And we knew 17 buildings were built like that. 18 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. 19 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: And we knew that 20 PCBs were harmful. 21 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. 22 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: But at no point 23 did it occur to your agency that we should come up 24 with a protocol on how to remove it. 25 MR. PAVLOU: Well, I mean, the removal 44 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 of PCBs, as long as you're, you know, hiring, you 3 know, professionals to do the removals, I assume 4 they can be removed in a safe manner. 5 EPA doesn't dictate the methods that 6 you use on how you remove the PCBs. All we're 7 saying, if you're removing them, you know, minimize 8 exposure risks, as well as minimize recontamination 9 of the building, of the premises, of the bricks, of 10 the woods, and then, you know, use a permitted 11 landfill to dispose of them if they exceed the 50 12 parts per million. That's what the regulations say. 13 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Okay. I'm really 14 trying to understand this. Thirty-one years ago 15 these were outlawed. Had you had any contact with 16 New York City schools before the past month or so 17 about PCBs? When was your first contact with New 18 York City schools about this? 19 MR. PAVLOU: I'm sorry, I'm trying to 20 find out. 21 Dan is telling me that in 2007 we 22 spoke to the New York State Department of Education 23 when they were developing the protocols. 24 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Explain that to me 25 more. What do you mean by that? 45 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MR. PAVLOU: Can I let Dan speak? 3 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Sure. 4 Why don't you let him answer it. 5 Has he been sworn in? 6 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes, he has. 7 MR. KRAFT: Yes. 8 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Please state 9 your name for the record, sir. 10 MR. KRAFT: My name is Daniel Craft. 11 I'm the Chief of the Toxic Substances Section in 12 Region 2. 13 When PCBs were regulated in the late 14 seventies, the agency focused on the current high 15 volume, high concentration uses of PCBs to make sure 16 that they would be properly disposed of when they 17 ended their useful life. 18 Things such as electrical 19 transformers and capacitors, heat transfer systems, 20 hydraulic systems. We knew, of course, that PCBs had 21 been used for coating, sealants in the past, but 22 those uses were banned when the law was passed, and 23 we were focusing on the ongoing high concentrations, 24 high volume uses of PCBs, and it's really been only 25 in the last ten years or so that we've become aware 46 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 of the potentially widespread usage of PCB and caulk 3 at these levels. 4 So, as George testified, the agency 5 is coming up with protocols and guidance on how to 6 address that. The regulations do provide guidance on 7 disposal requirements, we worked with the Department 8 of Education in New York State and they developed a 9 protocol for use when renovation or demolition is 10 anticipated, and they recommend that at that time 11 you characterize any PCBs materials present and take 12 appropriate steps to prevent release during the 13 removal and properly remove it. 14 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Thank you. 15 Mr. Pavlou, you said that this was an 16 emerging issue. What has made it emerge? 17 MR. PAVLOU: The fact that, you know, 18 we did find PCBs in caulks in schools, and that's 19 when, you know, we began realizing that it is an 20 issue that we need to address and addressing it in a 21 scientific manner. And that's also part of the 22 dilemma that we have, because the science that we 23 have, you know, regarding these exposures is not 24 very robust in terms of enabling us to make a 25 determination whether or not the PCBs in the caulk 47 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 can take that leap into, you know, health hazard. 3 That's what we don't have at this point in time. 4 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: But the scientific 5 evidence is robust enough for us to conclude that 6 PCBs are harmful? 7 MR. PAVLOU: Oh, yes. 8 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Okay. 9 MR. PAVLOU: Oh, yes. 10 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: So, in terms of 11 the schools, how many schools does the EPA think 12 have toxic PCBs in the caulking? 13 MR. PAVLOU: We don't know that. 14 We can only assume that those 15 buildings that were constructed between the 1940s 16 and the 1970s must of used caulk that contained PCBs 17 in them. 18 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: So, it makes 19 sense, and it's your recommendation that we test 20 those schools, the 266 schools to find out the PCB 21 levels in the caulking in the surrounding air? 22 MR. PAVLOU: All I'm saying is that, 23 you know, we don't know the extent of the problem. 24 We could be ubiquitous, but we don't know it. 25 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: I got it. But 48 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 isn't the first step of solving a problem 3 determining the extent of a problem? 4 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. It would be us 5 working with the Board of Education, as well as with 6 the New York City Department of Health to address 7 the issue as a whole. 8 We cannot test everything. Obviously 9 there is, and we cannot remove everything. 10 Obviously, there are limitations, you know, in terms 11 of the resources which we're going to be working, 12 you know, together with the City and the State, you 13 know, partners as well, in terms of, if you were to 14 test and if you were to find them, you know, on 15 their own on a voluntary mode, you know, to begin 16 addressing those issues. 17 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: But let's just 18 speak in plain English. 19 MR. PAVLOU: Right. 20 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Is it too 21 expensive to test all 266 schools? 22 MR. PAVLOU: Let's put it this way, 23 yes, cost would be a factor. Yes. 24 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: So, which schools 25 should we leave out? 49 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MR. PAVLOU: Well, again, it all 3 depends on the history of the school and whether or 4 not those windows were renovated, whether or not the 5 renovations occurred, you know, after 1980, if you 6 still have, you know, schools out there having 7 windows, you know, with caulking there that was put 8 in place, you know, between the forties and the 9 fifties and the sixties and the seventies. But 10 obviously you need to visually inspect those, see if 11 there is any deterioration of the caulk, see if it 12 is crumbling, see if it is peeling. 13 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: How many schools 14 have you tested so far? 15 MR. PAVLOU: We haven't tested any 16 schools. 17 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: In the 31 years 18 you've never tested a school? 19 MR. PAVLOU: We are not in the 20 business of doing the testing. We regulate the 21 testing by others. 22 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Are you aware of 23 any tests being done by outside groups? 24 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. 25 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Which groups? 50 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MR. PAVLOU: I think Mr. Lefkowitz 3 will tell you. I saw him in the audience. Yes. 4 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: I'm sorry, which 5 groups? 6 MR. PAVLOU: You know, Mr. Lefkowitz, 7 you know, as a private citizen, did some testing. I 8 believe it was in, you know, Yorktown Heights, New 9 York. 10 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: I guess, you know, 11 what is so troubling is, so, we've done some 12 testing, some alarm bells have been raised, and 13 basically your testimony to me is, is that, look, 14 there is 266 schools that have been built in this 15 period, and we think toxic PCB caulk may have been 16 used. We don't know the extent of the problem, but 17 we think it's too expensive to determine that. 18 MR. PAVLOU: No, no, I said cost is a 19 factor. 20 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Why is it a 21 factor? Talk to me about this. I want to know, at 22 what point do we think it's too expensive to test 23 the schools? 24 How much money is the EPA -- 25 MR. PAVLOU: It's not just the 51 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 schools. It could be thousands of other buildings 3 that are in the same situation, it's not just the 4 schools. It could be any other building in New York 5 City that was constructed during those times that 6 did install windows and the caulking around them 7 contain PCBs. 8 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Fair enough. 9 So, this is a pervasive problem for 10 buildings built in that period? 11 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. 12 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: You would 13 certainly agree, though, that our level of care 14 should be highest for buildings that have children 15 in it all day long? 16 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. 17 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: At current, what 18 is our level our care? Other than to say, look, we 19 know these are dangerous, but we have no idea how 20 bad it is. What is our level of care? What advice do 21 you have for citizens? 22 MR. PAVLOU: Well, we always want to 23 protect the most vulnerable, you know, the most 24 vulnerable population, which are the children, and 25 we want to protect them as much as possible. 52 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Well, what do you 3 mean by that, though? Because you haven't done 4 anything. 5 MR. PAVLOU: You've got to understand, 6 the law and the regulation does not dictate that EPA 7 go out there and do its own testing. We are supposed 8 to encourage the owners of the buildings, we're 9 supposed to encourage those who use the PCBs to take 10 the appropriate action. That's what the law 11 requires. 12 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Okay. So, then 13 what are you encouraging the City to do? 14 MR. PAVLOU: We ask for the data that 15 they have, you know. 16 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Have they provided 17 any data? 18 MR. PAVLOU: We got the results of the 19 testing of those ten schools that the Daily News 20 identified and the City Department of Education 21 tested. We got those results. We're asking for their 22 protocols that they used in terms of their testing 23 methodologies, and whether or not they were 24 appropriated. These are all things that we are 25 beginning to dialogue with the City and the State to 53 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 begin, again, the partnership to address it jointly 3 and address it appropriately. 4 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: You know, I mean, 5 I guess I'll wrap up soon, but it soon, but it seems 6 to me that it shouldn't be up to the Daily News to 7 be testing schools. I'm thankful the Daily News has 8 raised the topic, but it troubles me. I appreciate 9 your willingness to work cooperatively with other 10 government agencies, I truly do, but it seems to me 11 that that cooperation is misplaced. It's the EPA's 12 job to say, look, this is dangerous and you need to 13 change this. This is what we recommend. It's not 14 quite a partnership. It's more like, it's your job 15 to say when there is danger. And you know, I think 16 we see this federally all the time with regulators 17 who do become partners, whether it be with mortgage 18 banks or S&Ls or whoever, but it should not be in 19 your interest to be so cooperative, I would argue. 20 That it's your job to say, look, there is danger in 21 these, and to be blowing the whistle if there are 22 large owners, in this case of New York City, of 23 buildings that have children in every day with 24 potentially toxic chemicals. 25 MR. PAVLOU: Well, you're right. In 54 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 our discussions, you know, we want to work, you 3 know, cooperatively with, you know, the City 4 agencies, as well. 5 That doesn't necessarily mean, you 6 know, cooperation is capitulation in terms of our, 7 you know, regulations and applying them whenever we 8 believe it's appropriate, including, you know, 9 coming up with an appropriate practical plan on how 10 to address it. I mean, if we disagree with them, we 11 will disagree with them and let them know that these 12 are not the appropriate procedures that you should 13 be employing. Keep in mind, again, that we did 14 espouse and we did you know accept the New York 15 State Department of Education protocols on how to 16 address this issue. We accepted those. 17 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Shifting slightly, 18 PCBs in lead paint. Explain to me why -- because 19 you know, as we learned in this very room, I learned 20 so much about lead paint. I used to think that lead 21 paint, you had to eat it to get sick. And then I 22 learned it wasn't quite the case, that fugitive dust 23 could actually have incredibly harmful impact, 24 particularly on kids. Is that the same with PCB? 25 Could you inhale it? 55 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MR. PAVLOU: Well, as was mentioned 3 before, there are so many compounds in PCB. There 4 are like 200, you know, congeners or so, and the 5 more chlorine they contain, the more toxic they 6 become, the more persistent they are, the more 7 biocumulative they are, the more toxic they are. So, 8 it all depends on what kinds of PCBs, you know, 9 what's being used. 10 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: But there are some 11 PCBs that you could breathe in and get sick from? 12 MR. PAVLOU: Oh, yes. 13 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Now, if the 14 caulking is on the window, now these are older 15 buildings, so these are buildings that don't have 16 air conditioning, in many cases. 17 MR. PAVLOU: Right. 18 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: I don't know if 19 you've been in the New York City public schools, but 20 a lot of these, the big old windows -- 21 MR. PAVLOU: My kids went to school 22 there, yes. 23 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: So, they come on 24 down. Have you seen these big windows? They come 25 down, they kind of make a -- 56 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. Yes. 3 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Not quite a 4 smashing sound, but it's a kind of hard sound. 5 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. 6 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Could that 7 actually cause dust? 8 MR. PAVLOU: Well, they do cause dust. 9 Yes, they do. I mean, and then, you know, we have a 10 dust benchmark that we use in terms of a screening 11 criteria and whether or not that benchmark was 12 exceeded. And if it was exceeded, that's a level of 13 concern for us. 14 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: But we don't know 15 because no one is testing, right? 16 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. Yes. 17 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Okay. So, it seems 18 to me that the first step the EPA would recommend is 19 that we have systematic testing of these schools, 20 not just the caulk but the air surrounding them; is 21 that correct? 22 There's a logical first step? 23 MR. PAVLOU: You're right, Mr. Gioia. 24 All I'm saying is that our regulations do not 25 dictate testing. I'm sorry, do not require testing. 57 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 So, by regulation I cannot force anybody to test for 3 PCBs. 4 However, if they do test, there is an 5 inherent requirement, and they do exceed the 50 6 parts per million, that they remove that. That's all 7 I'm saying. 8 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: But wait a second. 9 Now, it seems to me then there is an incentive not 10 to test, because if they test and they find it, 11 they've got to remove it. 12 MR. PAVLOU: There is no requirement 13 to test, yes. 14 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Okay. All right. 15 Well, thank you. 16 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 17 Chairman Gioia. I recognize Chairman Jackson for 18 questions. 19 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Thank you. Good 20 afternoon. I think that you answered, yes, there is 21 no requirement to remove, but if it's found there is 22 a requirement to remove it, if it's above a certain 23 level. 24 MR. PAVLOU: Above 50 parts per 25 million, yes, that's correct. 58 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Let me ask you, 3 someone, an advocate gave me this question to ask 4 and I'm going to ask it of you, and my understanding 5 is 50 parts per million of PCBs is for PCBs that are 6 totally enclosed; is that correct? 7 MR. PAVLOU: No. All we're saying -- 8 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Fifty parts per 9 million. 10 MR. PAVLOU: -- Is that if they're 11 totally enclosed -- 12 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Yes. 13 MR. PAVLOU: -- Then there is no 14 threat. There is no risk. 15 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Right. No, I 16 understand that. 17 But my understanding also -- 18 MR. PAVLOU: But in caulk, you know, 19 we do not view the PCBs in caulk to be totally 20 enclosed. 21 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 22 Also, the information I have is that 23 there is zero tolerance for any level of PCBs that 24 are exposed, such as window caulking as per the EPA 25 rules; is that true or not true? 59 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MR. PAVLOU: That's not true. 3 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: That's not true? 4 MR. PAVLOU: That's not true. There is 5 zero tolerance. That's not true. 6 MR. KRAFT: EPA always has -- 7 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Speak into the 8 mike, please. 9 MR. KRAFT: EPA always has some 10 discretion in whether or not to take enforcement. 11 Okay, the regulation does, and the 12 statute does prohibit the use of PCB caulk greater 13 than 50 parts per million. 14 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 15 MR. KRAFT: But not zero tolerance. 16 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay, very good. 17 Now, in your testimony, Mr. Pavlou? 18 MR. PAVLOU: Pavlou, yes. 19 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: You indicated 20 that how ever based on the limited number of schools 21 tested by the New York City Department of Education, 22 we do not see significant risk. 23 MR. PAVLOU: For those schools, yes. 24 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: For those 25 schools. 60 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. 3 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Now, are you 4 talking about the total number of schools? What 5 about the specific school as indicated in my opening 6 statement at PS, I believe, 199 where the parents 7 and students and teachers were cleaning up dust 8 after ten days of construction where they removed 9 windows and what have you and so forth? 10 Do you know specifically, was that 11 not a risk, a significant risk factor to those 12 children? 13 MR. PAVLOU: 199 was part of those 14 schools tested by the New York City Board of 15 Education. Certainly that was the school which had 16 higher concentrations of PCBs in the dust, you know, 17 that were found. 18 But as I said earlier, those were 19 marginally elevated above, you know, the benchmarks 20 that we considered to be acceptable. But the Board 21 of Education did the right thing, went back there 22 and cleaned it up. 23 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 24 But my question to you was that, at 25 the level in which it was read at that particular 61 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 school, do you know if that caused a significant 3 health hazard to those children that were exposed. 4 MR. PAVLOU: Again, you have to 5 understand that when we do do risk assessments, you 6 know, we do them over a certain period of time. 7 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: I understand. 8 MR. PAVLOU: We view, you know, 9 lifetime exposure to be, you know, to be 70 years of 10 exposure before, you know, you can actually consider 11 that to be unacceptable risk. 12 You know, in other situations with 13 children, obviously, the risk assessment 14 methodology, you know, requires seven, eight years 15 of exposures, you know, for something to be above, 16 you know, a certain level to be of risk to the 17 child. 18 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Now, it's my 19 understanding that small exposures of PCBs, 13 parts 20 per trillion, I'm reading our briefing document, at 21 a maternal body burden of 13 parts per trillion, 22 puberty is delayed, girls experience slower breast 23 development, and penises and ducts in the testes are 24 smaller. And this is from the, a document; is that 25 true? 62 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MR. PAVLOU: Well, I'm not a health 3 expert to tell you the truth. 4 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: No, I'm not 5 asking you as a health expert. 6 MR. PAVLOU: I do know that PCBs are 7 highly toxic. 8 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Right. 9 MR. PAVLOU: Highly persistent, you 10 know, in the environment, that they do affect the 11 immune system, the nervous system, the endocrine. 12 You know, it's an endocrine disrupter. So, they are 13 a probable carcinogen. It's a nasty chemical, I mean 14 we admit that. But I do not know, based on the level 15 that you mention, you know, I have top consult with 16 a health professional on that. 17 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: But what about 18 the level in which was exposed at the school at 199? 19 MR. PAVLOU: Well -- 20 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Could that cause 21 a negative impact on those children's health, growth 22 and development? 23 MR. PAVLOU: Well, again, you know, 24 the risk is all based on duration and frequency of 25 exposure over a certain period of time. 63 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 3 MR. PAVLOU: Now, if you're asking me, 4 what was that exposure level of those 5 concentrations, I really don't know. 6 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: You don't know. 7 MR. PAVLOU: I don't know. 8 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: So, it could 9 have caused a negative health hazard to those 10 individuals', children's growth and development? 11 MR. PAVLOU: I don't know that. 12 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: I'm asking a 13 question, it could have. You don't know? You're 14 saying you don't know if it could have? 15 MR. PAVLOU: Yes -- 16 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: The answer is 17 what, yes? 18 MR. PAVLOU: I don't know that. I do 19 not know to give you an answer, you know, for that. 20 I am not a health expert. 21 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Sir, you're an 22 EPA official. 23 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. 24 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Is that correct? 25 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. 64 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: I'm asking you a 3 very simple, not technical question. I'm asking you 4 a very simple common question that parents want to 5 know. 6 As a parent, if I had children in the 7 school, I ask you as an EPA official, could my 8 children exposure for ten days of cleaning up dust 9 with their teachers, concerning that construction, 10 could it have? I'm not saying it did have. Could it 11 have an impact on my child's growth and development 12 as per all of the stuff that I read to you? 13 I just want a simple answer. It's 14 either yes, or it's either no. Don't give me a 15 bureaucratic answer. It's either yes or no. And I'm 16 asking you could it have? 17 MR. PAVLOU: I'm giving you an honest 18 answer. 19 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Then give me an 20 honest answer. 21 MR. PAVLOU: I don't know that. 22 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Is it yes or no? 23 MR. PAVLOU: I do not know that. 24 But, you know, if you want me to -- 25 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: I didn't ask you 65 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 if you knew, sir. I didn't ask if you know. I'm 3 asking you as a parent, a common-sense question, 4 could it? You don't know if it could or could not? 5 MR. PAVLOU: I'm not a health 6 professional. I'm an engineer. 7 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: As an engineer. 8 MR. PAVLOU: I don't know the answer. 9 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Tell me then, 10 are you telling me that any level of exposure, okay, 11 whatsoever, is going to affect the children's 12 health? Or is it only at a certain level? 13 MR. PAVLOU: You want me to give you 14 an answer? I will give you my best professional 15 judgment. 16 You know, one exposure does not a 17 risk make. Is that okay? 18 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: One exposure. 19 MR. PAVLOU: One exposure does not a 20 risk make. 21 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And what if 22 children are cleaning up dust for ten days in their 23 school. 24 MR. PAVLOU: I don't know the answer. 25 I don't know how many times I have to tell you. I do 66 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 not know the answer. 3 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: No, you know the 4 answer to the level of toxins that was available at 5 that school, based on the -- 6 MR. PAVLOU: I do not know that. I 7 just explained that to you. 8 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: No, no, no, no, 9 sir. Let me backtrack. 10 You said that at the level that was 11 tested. 12 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. 13 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: At that school. 14 MR. PAVLOU: In the dust. 15 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: It was above the 16 level -- 17 MR. PAVLOU: They found nothing in the 18 air. 19 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And, sir, the 20 kids were cleaning up dust. 21 MR. PAVLOU: Right. 22 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And I'm asking 23 you, after ten days of cleaning up dust on the 24 surfaces in their classroom, at the level which was 25 recorded by the Department of Education or their 67 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 consultant, could those children be at risk in their 3 development and health? As an engineer I ask you 4 that simple question. 5 You can't answer that. 6 MR. PAVLOU: I don't know the answer. 7 I don't know how many ways I have to say I don't 8 know the answer. 9 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: All right, I'll 10 ask the experts later. 11 I'll ask the experts later. You're 12 not a health expert. 13 MR. PAVLOU: I'm not a health expert. 14 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 15 But you say the children, though, 16 based on the exposure were not at significant risk. 17 That's what you stated in your testimony. 18 MR. PAVLOU: Yes. Based on the numbers 19 that were provided to EPA, yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 21 Thank you, sir. 22 MR. PAVLOU: You're welcome. 23 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Appreciate it. 24 MR. PAVLOU: Sure. 25 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 68 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Chairman Jackson. 3 Council Member Brewer. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Thank you. 5 PS 199 is in my district, and so I 6 have been to many meetings with the parents and with 7 the Department of Education and Department of 8 Health, and one of the issues that I'm concerned 9 about is the protocol. Because you mentioned in your 10 testimony on page two, that soil might be 11 contaminated from the caulk, which we know and so 12 on, and remediation waste. 13 So, my question to you is two-fold: 14 1) between the windows which had to be remediated, 15 once removed by the construction company, and the 16 soil which is being tested currently by the 17 Departments, what are, for any school that is in 18 this situation, what are the EPA protocols? 19 Obviously, they would be followed by 20 a contractor or by a local agency, but what are the 21 protocols for once the soil is tested and found to 22 include at whatever level, PCBs? 23 And what is the protocol for any 24 removal of any hardware or construction or caulking? 25 What is the protocol for where it would go once it 69 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 leaves the school? 3 MR. PAVLOU: We do not have any 4 protocols. 5 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: You don't have 6 any protocols for either one of those? 7 MR. PAVLOU: No. 8 I mean, when it comes to soils, 9 obviously, you know, I can tell you how you go about 10 testing for the soil, you know, be it in terms of 11 surface, be it in terms of, you know, subsurface and 12 how deep you need to go, I can tell you that, you 13 know, to come up with representative results and how 14 far down the soil you have to go to achieve, you 15 know, the remedial action level, or the clean-up 16 level. I can tell you these things. 17 But in terms of, you know, protocols 18 for the rest of them, we don't have any, other than, 19 you know, as I mentioned earlier, what the New York 20 State Department of Education developed, which, you 21 know, we accepted as appropriate. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. I may 23 suggest that you develop some protocols. 24 MR. PAVLOU: We're developing those, 25 as I mentioned before. 70 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay, but you 3 should do those quickly, because those seem to be 4 the issues, and I'm not going to get into specifics 5 but I think there is a question mark on how to deal 6 with those two issues. 7 Second protocol is the dust. In this 8 particular place, nobody knows where the dust comes 9 from. There are buildings, my colleagues may not 10 know this, there are buildings being built, but the 11 parents do, all over this area. And when the windows 12 were put in, they happened to be put in, for 13 whatever reason, with a slight opening that was then 14 covered and fixed, but that opening was there. 15 At the same time, concurrent with the 16 Daily News situation. So, my question is, teachers 17 to their credit, this is an incredibly good school, 18 if not the best in New York City, it's close to it, 19 the fact of the matter is the teachers are 20 wonderful, and they were doing their best they could 21 to remove the dust. One could argue that it should 22 have been done by the construction company, for 23 whatever reason, the teachers were still doing it. 24 What is your protocol for dust 25 removal? We all have memories of dust and 9/11, 71 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 because we remember that the dust wasn't removed 3 correctly, and I think you're aware of that. So, my 4 question is, in these situations, do you have a 5 protocol for removal of dust? 6 MR. PAVLOU: We do not. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: You don't. 8 MR. PAVLOU: We do not, no. 9 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: When are you 10 going to have -- do you believe that your agency 11 should have a protocol for removal of dust to give 12 local entities some kind of a boiler plate to work 13 with? 14 MR. PAVLOU: Yes, this is something 15 we're working on, as I mentioned, you know, in terms 16 of how do you assess, you know, the caulk -- yes, 17 the caulk, whether or not it contains the PCBs; how 18 do you dispose of it? How do you, you know, properly 19 manage it? 20 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. 21 MR. PAVLOU: And I would imagine, you 22 know, a part of it would be dust -- 23 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. I don't 24 get so upset, I just talk quietly, but my point is, 25 9/11, we had a great deal of dust, and it would seem 72 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 to me that your agency, in particular, would have 3 some experience with protocol and removing dust. 4 Now, I'm no engineer, but it doesn't 5 seem to me that -- it was toxic 9/11, toxic here, it 6 seems to me that it couldn't be too complicated to 7 come up with the correct protocols for removal so 8 that it is something that people can use as a base. 9 Such a protocol does not exist right 10 now? 11 MR. PAVLOU: We don't have that 12 protocol, other than using good housekeeping 13 practices, in terms of minimizing the generation and 14 resuspension of the dust, you know, by wetting 15 surfaces and making sure that, you know, appropriate 16 clean-ups, you know, take place, such that even if 17 workers go there they do not agitate the dust to 18 make it available for breathing. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. There is 20 more that's involved with removing this dust -- 21 MR. PAVLOU: Yes, definitely. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: And I think 23 the local agencies have certainly disseminated that 24 information. But I would strongly urge that you have 25 a better answer. 73 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Thank you very much. 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, Mr. 4 Povlou, Mr. Kraft, thank you for being here. It's a 5 tough line of questioning, EPA, like State 6 government does not have to appear before a 7 committee, you have chosen to come here. We 8 appreciate the fact that you are here. We hope that 9 you leave here with some inspiration to follow-up 10 assiduously -- 11 MR. PAVLOU: And we intend to do that. 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: -- With the 13 folks from the City so we can this situation under 14 control. And we're eager to get the Bloomberg 15 Administration panel going and we have many, many 16 other panels, but thank you for being here. 17 I want to thank Barry Shore and Peter 18 Brandt, for making arrangements for you to be here. 19 And once again, thank you for your testimony. 20 MR. PAVLOU: Thank you. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: The next panel, 22 Kathleen Grimm, the Deputy Schools Chancellor; 23 Jessica Leighton, whose title I believe is Deputy 24 Commissioner; Sharon Greenberger, the Executive 25 Director, or President, or Head of the School 74 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Construction Authority. 3 Thank you all for being here. We 4 appreciate your presence before the Committee and 5 your indulgence and patience with regard to the 6 lengthy testimony, question and answer of the EPA 7 panel. 8 We look forward to your testimony and 9 the following questions and answers. 10 Just one bit of housekeeping. We had 11 left the record open for the coupled bills before 12 the Committee on Environmental Protection, and is it 13 just Bill? 14 Okay, fine. Council Member DeBlasio, 15 how do you vote? 16 COUNCIL MEMBER DeBLASIO: I vote aye 17 on all, sir. 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, thank you. 19 Thank you. 20 Of course, maybe it's kind of 21 redundant, but we're joined by Council Member Bill 22 DeBlasio. I would ask the Counsel to this Committee 23 to swear in this panel. I welcome you all. Once 24 you're duly sworn, you can proceed with your 25 testimony. 75 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MS. SWANSTON: Please raise your right 3 hands. 4 Do you swear or affirm to tell the 5 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth 6 today? 7 ALL COLLECTIVELY: Yes. 8 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. 9 (Witnesses sworn.) 10 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Now, I have a 11 statement from Deputy Commissioner Leighton, a 12 statement from Deputy Chancellor Grimm, so in which 13 ever order you wish to proceed, you may do so. 14 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Well, thank 15 you very much. 16 I am Kathleen Grimm from the 17 Department of Education. 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: If I could, 19 Kathleen? 20 If I could ask for a little order in 21 the house, please so we can get the benefit of this 22 here? Everyone should be able to hear this 23 testimony, okay. 24 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: With me is 25 my colleague from the Department of Health, Deputy 76 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Commissioner, Dr. Leighton, and with me also is 3 Sharon Greenberger, the President of the School 4 Construction Authority. 5 What we would like to do is to have 6 the Department of Health testify first, in terms of 7 the health conditions, and then I would like to 8 address what we at the Department of Education and 9 the School Construction authority are doing in terms 10 of the protocols. 11 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, you have 12 to push the button. When the light is on, the mike 13 is on. 14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Okay. 15 Good afternoon, Chairperson Jackson, 16 Gennaro, Gioia and members of the Committee on 17 Education, Environmental Protection and Oversight 18 and Investigations. 19 I'm Jessica Leighton. I'm the Deputy 20 Commissioner for Environmental Health at the 21 Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. 22 I'm an epidemiologist and I've been 23 with the Health Department for 19 years. 24 I want to thank you for the 25 opportunity to comment on the recent attention given 77 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 to the presence of polychlorinated biphenyls, or 3 PCBs, in building materials identified in certain 4 New York City schools. 5 And I actually, if it's okay, I want 6 to just divert for a second to say a couple of 7 things. 8 You know, I think we're all concerned 9 about our kids, and I think we're all concerned 10 whenever we have potential exposures to anything 11 among our children, among ourselves. I think, 12 unfortunately, we live in this industrialized 13 society where there is constant news reports coming 14 at us of potential hazards in plastics and in 15 caulking and walls and in the water we drink and 16 we're dealing with that all the time. And I think 17 that, I just want to make clear, our role as the 18 Health Department is to help people really, for us 19 to review the literature, to talk to scientists who 20 are experts in the field, and really to come up with 21 some assessments of what the real risk is to people. 22 And that's our job and we take it very seriously. 23 And, so, what I'm going to be saying, 24 and it's all based on the fact that we have reviewed 25 the literature, we've talked to people, and that 78 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 we're trying to put the risks, and the real risks 3 from intact caulk, versus disturbed caulk, into 4 perspective for all of us. 5 So, on that note, I'll just continue. 6 We're all concerned about potential exposures and 7 health risks from contaminants in our environment. 8 Part of the Health Department's responsibility in 9 promoting and protecting health is to effectively 10 communicate with the public regarding health risks 11 that may exist in the environments. 12 I hope that my testimony today will 13 help you to better understand the issue of PCBs in 14 the environment. 15 I will begin with an overview of PCBs 16 and their uses, the presence of PCBs in the 17 environment and the health affects associated with 18 exposure to PCBs, and then I'm going to discuss what 19 we know about exposure and health risks associated 20 with PCBs that is found in window caulk. 21 My colleagues from the Department of 22 Education will address specifics pertaining to the 23 testing policies and protocols that are used in the 24 schools. 25 PCBs are manmade chemicals that were 79 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 widely produced and distributed across the country 3 from the 1950s to 1977, until the production of PCBs 4 was banned by the USEPA law, which became effective 5 in 1978. 6 PCBs are a class of chemicals made up 7 more than 200 different compounds. PCBs are 8 nonflammable, they're stable, and they're good 9 insulators, so they were widely used in a variety of 10 products, including electrical transformers and 11 capacitors, cable and wire coverings, sealants and 12 caulking and household products, such as television 13 sets and florescent light fixtures. 14 Because of their chemical properties, 15 PCBs are not very soluble in water and they do not 16 break down easily in the environment. PCBs also do 17 not readily evaporate into air, but tend to remain 18 as solids or thick liquids. Even though PCBs have 19 not been produced or used in this country for more 20 than 30 years, they're still present in the 21 environment - in the air, in the water, in the soil 22 and water and in our food. 23 What we know about exposures and 24 health effects: PCBs are likely to be found in the 25 caulking and other building materials of a large 80 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 proportion of homes, schools, hospitals and office 3 buildings built or renovated before 1978. 4 In New York City, more than 225,000 5 residential, commercial, industrial and 6 institutional buildings were constructed between 7 1940 and 1980, and potentially contain PCBs in caulk 8 or other building materials. 9 So, it's really not surprising that 10 PCBs were identified in the caulk in some New York 11 City schools built before 1978. 12 PCBs have been widely studied in the 13 environment, in the workplace and in laboratory 14 animals. People can be exposed to PCBs by touching 15 PCBs, breathing in contaminated air, or eating 16 contaminated food. 17 The most serious exposures and health 18 risks are among workers who were exposed during PCB 19 manufacturing and during clean-ups of PCB spills and 20 fires. Some communities have also been exposed to 21 PCBs from large scale environmental releases. The 22 general public is mostly exposed to PCBs in the food 23 we eat, especially fish, meat and dairy products. 24 While PCBs are widespread in the 25 environment, potential exposures from building 81 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 caulking or other building materials are considered 3 to be very small when compared to every day dietary 4 exposures. 5 We just keep in mind, however, that 6 there are gaps in our knowledge. 7 For example, although we know that 8 PCBs are persistent in our industrialized 9 environment from past use, we do not have 10 information on the levels of PCBs in our current 11 environments. Thus, baselined or backbound levels 12 are not available to help us assess what may be 13 above this background when we test schools or other 14 buildings. 15 It's important to remember, however, 16 just because PCBs are found, it does not mean we are 17 in danger. 18 Most of us probably have some PCBs in 19 our body, but few of us have any health consequences 20 as a result. However, high levels of exposure to 21 PCBs can be dangerous. Skin conditions, such as acne 22 and rashes, can occur after exposure to large 23 amounts of PCBs in the workplace. PCBs cause some 24 types of cancer in laboratory animals, and high 25 levels of exposure may cause cancer in people. 82 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 In addition, studies of pregnant 3 women and their children suggest a link between high 4 levels of PCBs in a mother's body during pregnancy, 5 and some affect on her child's birth weight, 6 short-term memory, and learning. 7 Our knowledge about these health 8 affects come from studies of laboratory animals, 9 occupational studies of exposed workers and dietary 10 studies where people have consumed large quantities 11 of PCB contaminated fish. 12 There is a growing body of research 13 showing that human exposures to PCBs from building 14 materials are quite small and studies have not found 15 health affects from such exposures. 16 Since the EPA ban, PCB levels in 17 humans have greatly decreased. The National Health 18 and Nutrition Examination Survey measured PCB levels 19 in human blood in the early 2000s, and found that 20 levels are low in children and increase with age. 21 And this is because PCBs are persistent in the body, 22 and exposures were higher in the years past. 23 While laboratory tests can measure 24 PCB levels in blood, fat, tissue and breast milk, 25 these tests are not commonly available and cannot 83 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 determine where, when, or for how long a person was 3 exposed to PCBs, nor can these tests pinpoint acute 4 or recent exposure or tell whether the person will 5 develop adverse health effects. 6 Regarding the windows, the PCBs in 7 window caulk. PCBs were used in some caulking and 8 other building materials, particularly from 1970 to 9 -- 1950 to 1977. When contaminated caulk is 10 disturbed, it deteriorates with age. It produces 11 dust that may contain PCBs. This dust can be inhaled 12 or ingested through normal hand-to-mouth contact, 13 particularly by young children. The concentrations 14 found in indoor dust and air can vary depending on 15 the type of caulking and the conditions in the room, 16 but they are unlikely to reach levels that would 17 pose health affects. 18 No scientific studies have linked 19 exposure from building caulk with health effects in 20 building occupants. When PCB containing caulk is 21 removed and disposed of, it can contaminate 22 surrounding surfaces. Necessary repairs that disturb 23 caulks, such as window removal and replacement, 24 should be conducted by trained workers who use safe 25 work practices to minimize dust and contain 84 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 contaminated waste. 3 Once the window replacements have 4 been completed, the area should be thoroughly 5 cleaned and using recommended methods. 6 Protocols such as those published by 7 the New York State Education Department offer 8 guidance on testing of caulk and soil, and provide 9 abatement methods based on lead-based paint hazard 10 controls. 11 There have been a few detectable 12 levels of PCBs found in the schools. There are also 13 detectable levels of PCBs found in our food. 14 We can do comparisons of these levels 15 and we have done. For example, if children were to 16 absorb the trace amounts of PCBs found in the 17 lunchroom air at one of the schools, to the amount 18 they get in food, they would have to sit in the 19 lunchroom for a month to get the amount of PCBs from 20 eating one hamburger. 21 Regarding environmental testing for 22 PCBs, just environmental test sampling is a really 23 complex undertaking that requires capital planning 24 and interpretation. Interpreting PCB levels from 25 environmental testing is complicated by the multiple 85 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 chemicals involved, the lack of background levels in 3 the environment, and the lack of regulatory exposure 4 limits. 5 Several different types of tests are 6 available to determine PCB levels in the 7 environment. Bulk sampling of materials, such as 8 caulk, can provide information on the presence of 9 PCBs in testing materials, but does not provide 10 information on the potential for human exposure. 11 Sampling of the air, surfaces and 12 soil are methods that can help determine potential 13 human exposure through inhalation, through ingestion 14 and through skin contact. 15 Thus, the School Construction 16 Authority collected air, surface dust and soil 17 samples in several schools. Although there are no 18 regulatory or recommended daily PCB exposure limits 19 for the general population, results of the air 20 samples taken by the SCA were all within the 21 published federal and State guidelines that had been 22 used to determine reoccupancy after PCB clean-ups. 23 In fact, the Department of 24 Education's protocols for dealing with PCB far 25 surpasses the State guidelines. 86 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Surface dust wipe samples can 3 indicate potential ingestion and dermal exposures. 4 Results of these samples with few exceptions were 5 all within EPA decontamination standards for 6 residential and commercial use. 7 Soil samples for PCBs indicated some 8 elevated levels in some areas adjacent to school 9 buildings, and these areas have been isolated until 10 further evaluation remediation. 11 In closing, we do not believe there 12 is a significant health risk associated with the 13 presence of PCBs and window caulk as long as it 14 remains intact. 15 However, to ensure that children and 16 staff are protected from potential exposures, we'll 17 continue to work with City, State and federal 18 partners, as well as the school community and 19 elected officials to minimize any risks. And I just 20 want to thank you for the opportunity to testify. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. Thank 22 you. 23 While it's normally my practice to 24 wait for the testimony of the entire panel before 25 asking questions of individual members of the panel, 87 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 I'll beg my fellow Chair's indulgence, and just take 3 this opportunity to pose a question and a comment 4 and I certainly would invite my co-chairs to do the 5 same. 6 On the night before the first Daily 7 News story broke, I had a very long -- well, I had a 8 conversation with Commissioner Frieden that we 9 followed up the next day with several longer 10 conversations, because I was formulating what was 11 going to be my pronouncement on that day, and I 12 thought it was appropriate to consult with the 13 Commissioner and he was happy to engage me, and he 14 thought it would be entirely appropriate and 15 responsible for me to call upon the SCA and the 16 Department of Education to commence an immediate 17 physical inspection of all of the caulking in 18 buildings in schools that we can presume causes 19 PCBs, and that seems to be supported by the last 20 paragraph of your statement that you believe that 21 there was no significant health risk associated with 22 the presence of PCBs in window caulk, as long as it 23 remains intact. So, you seem to be reinforcing the 24 Commissioner's position that he told me that it 25 would be responsible for me to call upon the School 88 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Construction Authority to commence an immediate 3 physical inspection of caulking that's flaking, 4 peeling, crumbling, friable and to call for that to 5 be done right away and for the safe removal of 6 caulking that essentially fails inspection; do you 7 agree with the Commissioner on that? 8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 9 Absolutely. And I think that my colleagues from SCA 10 and DOE will be talking about what they're doing, 11 what they're planning and what they've done when 12 they do their testimony and questioning. 13 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. Well, I 14 certainly look forward to hearing that. And they 15 also have more questions for you, Madam 16 Commissioner. But unless my Co-chairs have any 17 questions for Deputy Commissioner Leighton, perhaps 18 we should go on to the testimony of Deputy 19 Chancellor Grimm; is that okay with my colleagues? 20 Okay, Deputy Chancellor Grimm. 21 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Good 22 afternoon, again. 23 I want to thank the Council for the 24 opportunity for all of us to have a discussion on 25 this topic of PCBs. 89 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 It's a very good thing for all of us 3 to be together here today in this public forum. As 4 Dr. Leighton of the Health Department has testified, 5 the evidence indicates that there is not a 6 significant health risk in our schools from PCBs. 7 That is a very important message for all of us to 8 get across to our parents, our teachers and to all 9 members of our school communities. 10 We hope that this hearing helps us 11 all do that. We are delighted to be before you today 12 with our colleagues from Health and EPA, who have 13 already testified, so that you know we are working 14 together to make sure that we have a coordinated and 15 comprehensive approach to this situation. 16 Representatives of the Health 17 Department not only evaluate the health risks for 18 us, but also attend meetings with our parents and 19 our school communities to help inform them. 20 My office has a regular liaison with 21 a regional EPA office. I understand that you also 22 will hear today from Randi Weingarten, President of 23 the UFT. We have been working closely with her staff 24 as we do on all environmental matters. 25 I hope that you come to appreciate 90 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 the team effort we have here to make sure that our 3 schools are safe for our children and our teachers. 4 Safety is absolutely paramount, and 5 we are sensitive to the concerns that parents have 6 raised and we are taking them very seriously. 7 PCB levels in indoor air and dust can 8 vary a great deal, depending on specific building or 9 room conditions, but studies show that PCB 10 containing building materials are not a significant 11 source of PCB exposure. 12 When the PCB containing caulk is 13 disturbed or deteriorates with age, it produces dust 14 that may contain PCBs. If not properly managed, this 15 dust can be inhaled or ingested from normal 16 hand-to-mouth contact, particularly by young 17 children, as DOH has explained. 18 Our safety protocols. We have 19 protocols in place to ensure that our students are 20 learning in classrooms where the air is safe to 21 breathe, and we have taken several steps to minimize 22 the exposure of PCBs to our students and our staff. 23 The New York State Education 24 Department has published protocols for addressing 25 PCBs in caulking material in school buildings. This 91 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 protocol has been developed in consultation with the 3 New York Department of Health, Division of 4 Environmental Health Assessment, Bureau of Toxic 5 Substance Assessment, to address concerns about 6 properly managing caulk containing PCBs that will be 7 disturbed during building renovation and 8 maintenance. 9 First of all, SCA applies the new SED 10 protocol to all school buildings built prior to 11 1985, thereby casting a wider net than we are 12 required to. 13 Secondly, the SCA assumes that all 14 caulk present in these buildings contain PCBs. Also 15 going above and beyond what the State protocol calls 16 for. 17 Thirdly, SCA utilizes the very same 18 dust control measures for PCB as is used for lead 19 dust control. The protocols require rigorous dust 20 control measures during the work, followed by 21 cleaning and inspection by the contractor at the 22 conclusion of every workshift. 23 Fourthly, all repairs that disturb 24 caulk, such as window removal and replacement, are 25 conducted by trained workers who use safe work 92 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 practices to minimize dust and contain contaminated 3 waste. 4 Lastly, after completion of the 5 renovation or demolition that involves a disturbance 6 of the caulks, an inspection is performed by a 7 qualified environmental professional to determine 8 soil sampling requirements based on SED guidelines. 9 I'd like to talk a little bit about 10 where we are today. To assess the risk of exposure 11 in nine school buildings where potential hazards 12 were alleged, the SCA and its independent 13 environmental consultants tested for the presence of 14 PCB in the air and dust. 15 In the eight schools discussed in 16 recent media, over 250 air and dust wipe samples 17 were collected. In the air test the PCB levels were 18 non-detectable. Meaning that they were so low that 19 the testing equipment could not find the presence of 20 PCBs in every sample except for one. That sample was 21 slightly above the lowest concentration that the 22 test could detect and well below the DOH guideline 23 for air samples. 24 The dust wipe samples were either 25 non-detectable or far below the federal thresholds 93 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 with one exception, one of the dust wipe samples was 3 scarcely above the level that the US Environmental 4 Protection Agency uses for clearance after a 5 clean-up. And as part of the review we did 6 determine, and as we have informed the local 7 officials, because of a delay in our implementing 8 the State guidelines, we did not test the building 9 waste materials at PS 199 before they were removed. 10 However, I assure you that all the dust protocols 11 were in place during the construction and all of the 12 activity within the school building. 13 These findings represent negligible 14 amounts of PCBs and do not present a danger or 15 significant health risk to the school community. 16 As the Commissioner of the City's 17 Health Department stated in his earlier letter to 18 the editor of the Daily News, "The trace amounts 19 detected in the New York City schools don't approach 20 the concentration that kids ingest daily in their 21 food. Even at the highest level measured, a child 22 would have to spend months in a school building to 23 get the exposure found in a single piece of meat or 24 fish. 25 The most important observation that 94 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 can be made from these test results, is that PCB 3 levels were either undetectable or insignificant in 4 practically every case. 5 These findings have been discussed 6 with the DOHMH staff who have reviewed the data and 7 who have not indicated a need to perform additional 8 sampling. 9 Regarding the soils, SCA retained 10 qualified environmental professionals to assess the 11 condition of exterior caulk and soils at eight 12 schools. 13 Based upon the assessment, soil 14 screening samples were collected and analyzed for 15 PCBs. At these schools, four had PCB concentrations 16 above the US EPA standard of one part per million, 17 the other four did not. Additional samples have been 18 collected at those four schools to verify the 19 potential presence of PCBs and to determine the 20 extent of impacted soils. We will utilize this 21 information to develop a plan of action for the 22 impacted soils that will be shared with regulatory 23 agencies, including the US EPA, the Department of 24 Health and New York State Department of 25 Environmental Conservation for their review and 95 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 approval before implementation. 3 In addition to the protocols that the 4 SCA follows, we issued a circular to all building 5 custodians providing them with guidance. This 6 circular requires that all custodian engineers and 7 building managers are to include windowsills, 8 exterior ledges, exterior door frames, as well as 9 grade level areas near caulked structures, 10 specifically during their routine daily inspections. 11 Furthermore, all custodial engineers 12 and building managers are now required to perform 13 monthly inspections of all exterior windowsills and 14 ledges, exterior door frames, as well as all grade 15 elevations in proximity to caulked structures in 16 order to determine if there is any presence of 17 disturbed or deteriorated caulking materials. 18 All monthly inspection results will 19 be documented and completed inspection forms will be 20 kept on file in the custodial engineers or building 21 manager's office. 22 As we all know, the disturbance of 23 existing building materials without following proper 24 abatement procedures, and in accordance with 25 applicable federal, State and City rules and 96 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 regulations, may pose health or physical hazards to 3 those utilizing the school buildings. We have 4 standard operating procedures in place in order to 5 assure our commitment to providing a safe and 6 healthy environment and compliance with all 7 applicable rules and regulations whenever these 8 building materials are disturbed. 9 These SOPs are designed to avoid any 10 improper removal or disturbance of potentially 11 hazardous substances like PCBs, and they are to be 12 followed by an individual who performs any work in a 13 New York City school building that will impact in 14 any way on any of the existing building materials. 15 As the Department of Health 16 testified, PCBs are prevalent in our society, in our 17 school buildings, as well as in our apartment 18 buildings, and others, that were constructed or 19 renovated between the 1950s through the 1970s. It is 20 quite likely the PCBs -- for those buildings, it is 21 quite likely that PCBs were used in caulking. 22 It's use has since been banned, and 23 the Department goes to great lengths to ensure the 24 potential contaminants that are released because of 25 renovations in our school buildings are safely and 97 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 appropriately cleaned up. 3 We have been working collaboratively 4 with the EPA, the DEC, the DOHMH, the UFT, and we 5 will continue all steps necessary to address both 6 short-term and long-term approaches to dealing with 7 PCBs. 8 For certain, we need a coordinated 9 response from all agencies at every level of 10 government. Thank you very much for the opportunity 11 to discuss our efforts to ensure a healthy and safe 12 learning environment for our students and our 13 teachers. 14 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. Thank 15 you, Deputy Chancellor Grimm, for your testimony. 16 Now, it seems like what you outlined 17 with regard to using custodians to do routine 18 physical inspections -- when was this policy 19 created? 20 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: The circular 21 containing the guidance to our custodians and 22 building managers was issued a couple of weeks ago. 23 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. In 24 response to the stories in the Daily News? 25 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Well, in 98 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 response to our entire review as we work with the 3 other agencies in this area, one of the things we 4 wanted to assure was that all staff realized their 5 responsibilities and what should be done to make 6 sure that we were monitoring our schools and 7 identifying any possible decomposure in caulk. 8 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. So, the 9 circular went out. The policy was promulgated, but 10 the inspections would have commenced like within the 11 last two weeks or something, that that's when they 12 would have commenced? 13 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Well, 14 custodians and building managers have been alert in 15 their buildings for a long time, it's required. What 16 is new is that we have formalized a monthly 17 reporting where custodians must document any 18 instance that they observe of caulk that is 19 deteriorating. 20 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: And so along 21 with the policy and the circular and the form that 22 had to get filled out, have you gotten any forms 23 back yet? 24 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: No, not yet. 25 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. 99 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: It is 3 certainly a more vigilant guideline than we had in 4 place before. 5 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. 6 Now, with regard to -- I'm not a 7 building expert, but it would be the Department's 8 contention that building engineers and custodians 9 should be able to recognize caulking that is 10 disturbed. 11 Is there any protocols for training 12 or whatever, for how this is going to be carried 13 out? 14 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Well, what 15 we ask our custodians to do, they are the people on 16 the ground. They're there every day. We ask them if 17 they observe any situation where caulking looks like 18 it's deteriorating, that they report that to us. And 19 then a team of our facilities people and our School 20 Construction people would evaluate that situation. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Now, the EPA 22 testified that if one is to find, through some kind 23 of chemical testing, caulking that has greater than 24 50 parts per million of PCBs, such caulking has to 25 be removed, that was their testimony. 100 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Mm-hmm. 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: So, who would be 4 the entity that would be reviewing these sheets when 5 they come back? Who would be doing that? 6 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: The sheets 7 would be reviewed by the School Facilities people. 8 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. And who 9 are they? Who are the Schools Facilities people? 10 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: The School 11 Facilities people is a unit that reports to me. It 12 includes our custodian and our trades people, they 13 do our cleaning, our maintenance and minor repairs. 14 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. But it 15 seems to me that if there are reports of crumbling, 16 flaking, peeling, friable, caulking that we can all 17 reasonably assume to contain PCBs, that's going to 18 trigger some kind of review and I would hope a clean 19 up to be conducted by competent professionals who 20 utilize all necessary clean-up protocols. Would this 21 group be in a position to do that? It sounds like 22 something like that might be a little beyond their 23 can (sic), no? 24 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Well, what 25 we're talking about are the people who are on the 101 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 ground who can alert us. We are in conversations 3 actually with the UFT, having discussions about how 4 to create perhaps a special team, to respond to 5 that. 6 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: But those 7 conversations are ongoing right now. But the UFT is 8 a Teachers Union. I love teachers. I taught college 9 for eight years. My mother, of blessed memory, that 10 I referenced at the beginning of the hearing, was a 11 teacher for 30 years, but it seems to me that the 12 UFT's specialty is teaching and not, you know, 13 buildings or whatever. 14 So, although it's always good to have 15 the UFT at the table, I'm thinking more like 16 engineers and that kind of thing. So, I don't really 17 understand how all this would work. They would fill 18 out the forms. They would go to the physical 19 facilities people, who are not the caliber of people 20 who ordinarily would be in a position to really 21 address the situation, would you envision some kind 22 of requirements contracts that you might have with 23 an environmental remediation firm that would come 24 out and do these clean-ups when identified? And do 25 you even have that in place now? 102 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 For example -- okay, I'm going on and 3 on. At some point I should certainly let you talk. 4 But it seems to me that perhaps it's the case the 5 only time that caulking is cleaned up and all the 6 risks are associated with it are dealt with 7 properly, is it is during window replacements, and 8 right now there is really sort of no mechanism in 9 place to deal with friable, peeling, flaking 10 caulking, or any contracts that you have with 11 clean-up companies to do this, or is that not the 12 case? Is that the case? 13 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Well, I thin 14 we're talking about a couple of different things. 15 Certainly the protocols that we're 16 talking about, the major protocols that we are 17 talking about, address situations where we are going 18 in, for example, and replacing windows. 19 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. 20 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Clearly that 21 is a situation where we know there is a risk that we 22 are going to be disturbing caulk that most likely 23 has PCBs in it. 24 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes. 25 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: So, those 103 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 protocols are in place, those are the protocols that 3 have been discussed that the SED has issued. 4 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. We'll 5 discuss them more, because I don't really 6 understand. We'll save that to just the moment. 7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GRIMM: All right. 8 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: This is more to 9 the other stuff we're talking about, about caulking 10 that is not part of a window replacement. 11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER GRIMM: So, what 12 we want to do, in schools where we have tested, the 13 evidence indicates to us that there is not any 14 serious risk here. So, what we're doing -- 15 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: No, I just have 16 to stop you in that I don't agree with that. 17 Commissioner Leighton's statement and 18 the EPA's statement is that if it's cracking, 19 peeling, flaking, it does indeed pose a potential 20 release point of PCBs into the school environment, 21 which has been going on since 1977, 1978 presumably, 22 and it's only now are we dealing with that issue in 23 any kind of comprehensive way, and heretofore it's 24 just been a matter of when we're doing construction 25 activity that's going to disturb PCBs, that's when 104 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 we, you know, take precautions and do clean-ups and 3 that kind of thing. 4 And for PCBs that are not involved 5 and some kind of construction, there is not now full 6 yet, and there has not been a protocol or a program 7 to identify flaking, peeling, cracking, caulking, 8 and statements from the SCA, and the DOE and the 9 Bloomberg Administration, after I called upon them 10 to do this, the statements from the Administration 11 were that that was not going to happen. 12 And, so, now this is new, and you're 13 trying to get it going, and you're doing these forms 14 and you're figuring out which entity within the SCA 15 is going to handle this, and I think it should be 16 handled by professionals who are sort of up to the 17 job, and there should be some kind of a contract 18 arrangement which companies that can come in and 19 perform the necessary abatement. So, is that or is 20 that not going to be the case? 21 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: What we are 22 talking about is a new area. And as the EPA 23 testified, if there are no requirements to test 24 caulking, if caulking, if it is determined that we 25 have caulking, then we are now involved in 105 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 conversations with the EPA, with the Department of 3 Health, with State agencies in terms of what 4 long-term and short-term steps are most appropriate 5 to take. And those conversations are happening. 6 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: And it's 7 refreshing that conversations are happening, but 8 we're still in kind of a regulatory no man's land 9 whereby the EPA by its own admission would say, and 10 they have rules that say that if you find caulking 11 that's more than 50 PPM of PCBs, it's got to go, but 12 we're not going to make you test for it. Which sort 13 of, as Chairman Gioia, you know, pointed out, is a 14 little bit of kind of like a regulatory never never 15 land. It's like we would really prefer that it not 16 be in the schools, or anywhere for that matter, and 17 if you happen to test it and a parent takes a piece 18 of it and brings it to a local laboratory and finds 19 out that it's more than 50 PPM then it's got to go, 20 and the presumption is that the federal EPA made 21 that rule that says if you find it and it's more 22 than 50 PPM, and it's got to go, there is a health 23 reason connected with why that's the policy. They 24 just haven't made a complete policy that says not 25 only do we want the caulking that is more than 50 106 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 PPM to go, but we want you to go out there and find 3 out where it is. And, so, that's the missing link, 4 that's sort of like, you know, the person on the 5 street would see as just basic logic. 6 And, so, in the absence of that 7 comprehensive policy, which ultimately may be the 8 policy of the EPA once it fully figures out what it 9 wants to do on this, then that will -- so, in the 10 absence of a complete policy, it's up to us as, you 11 know, stewards of all these kids and their health to 12 make sure that we, you know, do something that is 13 consistent and in the spirit of the EPA rule that 14 says that, you know, caulking that has more than 50 15 PPM of PCBs has to go. 16 And I think we're kind of at, you 17 know, not even stage one, and moving forward, we're 18 kind of at stage zero. And the stage zero that we're 19 at now is that Daily News had a bunch of stories, 20 people went out and got stuff tested, we did the 21 wipe test and now we're going to figure out where 22 it's cracking, peeling, friable, and then it's like 23 where is all that paper going to go? And what 24 contracting entities, or what people within the SCA 25 world are going to go out there and like remove this 107 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 caulking, and once we find caulking in a school, 3 let's say there's ten sections of the school where 4 there is caulking that is flaking, do we test all 5 the caulking? Do we just remove that? And, so, we're 6 still kind of, you know, not there, and we can't 7 just hide behind the fact that, you know, the 8 federal government hasn't really, you know, told us 9 like what we need to do yet. 10 I think it is incumbent upon us to 11 figure out precisely what we're going to do, and I 12 think what we're talking about now, looking at their 13 cracking, peeling, flaking, crumbling and figuring 14 out what to do about that, which is not even fully 15 crystalized, there is policy beyond that as to PCBs 16 that are in the school that may be of the range of 17 300,000 parts of PPM -- of PCBs, but completely 18 intact, and that may, you know, yet be a problem 19 that we have to figure out. 20 But, certainly, the first step, 21 cracking, peeling, crumbling, would be first, and I 22 don't think we have a total handle on that, because 23 this would just go to people who just do like 24 in-house clean-ups, or whatever. 25 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Well, I 108 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 think we all have more work to do on it, but I -- 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes. I clearly 4 would agree that that is a very, very true 5 statement. 6 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Thank you. 7 But I would just reiterate that in the schools where 8 it was alleged there was PCB, and we were advised to 9 do air and dust testing, there was no evidence in 10 the air and dust samples that there was any 11 significant risk, and I think that is an important 12 piece to remember. 13 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes, but it is 14 also the case, it is also the case, by the person 15 sitting to your right, and by the federal 16 government, that says that cracking, peeling, 17 flaking caulking represents a direct release point 18 of PCBs into the school environment. So, to state 19 that it's not really a problem is to I think 20 misstate. 21 And I just want to call upon, I just 22 want to recognize Chairman Gioia that I think wants 23 to take that concept and, you know, move it one step 24 further. So, I recognize Chairman Gioia. 25 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Thank you, Mr. 109 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Chair. Thank you for relinquishing your time. I'm 3 happy to give it back to you in just a minute or 4 two. 5 Because, first, thank you all for 6 testifying. I'm happy to see the City is taking some 7 steps now at the beginning to try to recognize the 8 problem, to assess how bad the problem is. 9 The first thing, I mean I read this 10 quote, I guess it's from the Health Commissioner in 11 a letter to the Daily News, it says:"...even at the 12 highest level measured, a child would have to spend 13 months in a school building to get the exposure 14 found in a single piece of meat or fish." 15 There's a couple of problems with 16 that statement. First of all, I think we should all 17 anticipate that children spend more than a few 18 months in a school. Unless there is some attrition 19 rate that I am not aware of. Especially young 20 children, it seems to me you start in kindergarten, 21 you end up at least to fifth grade, so you're 22 spending years in a school, not a few months, 23 correct? I assume we all agree with that? 24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Right. 25 But we were just comparing that one hamburger to the 110 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 exposure over a month. So, you just have to eat one 3 hamburger and you get the same exposure as you would 4 in a month. 5 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: For a few months, 6 right. So, at what point would the Health Department 7 -- and it's curious, because sometimes you get this 8 testimony from the Health Department, and I remember 9 testimony about transfats, that made me think a 10 Hostess Twinkee, or a Hostess cupcake was, you know, 11 this fatal instrument that would guarantee heart 12 seizure of 12 year olds, you know? 13 And, so, now I hear that PCBs, you 14 spend a few months, it's like eating a cheeseburger. 15 So, tell me how bad, how bad are the PCBs in school? 16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: The 17 levels that were found, the one air level that was 18 found was the level that we used to compare it to 19 the hamburger. That was one air level at one point 20 in time. 21 We have not done assessments testing, 22 which would be an enormous job over periods of time. 23 So that might have been an isolated level. May not 24 have been. But at the level that we're talking about 25 -- 111 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: But when you say 3 the level we're talking about, you mean at that one 4 level? 5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: That 6 one elevated level that we found, that's the level 7 that we used to compare it to just eating one 8 hamburger. And the point of that really is to say 9 that the major source of PCBs in our environment is 10 not from the air that we're exposed to, not from the 11 caulking, the PCBs and the caulking, but from the 12 food we eat actually. 13 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: I got it. 14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: And 15 putting it all in perspective, it's likely that the 16 amount that we're getting in the exposure to the 17 caulking is a very small, small proportion of what 18 we're getting in food. Not to say, and I don't think 19 any of us are saying that we shouldn't take measures 20 to really make sure that no one is being exposed in 21 the schools, we absolutely agree with that. And I 22 think we all agree that we need to air on the side 23 of safety, and I think where the Department of 24 Education is focusing, and as you know, we don't 25 have a lot of guidelines out there, and what we're 112 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 trying to do is figure out the best way to be 3 protective of children, and not expose, and to 4 really reduce and minimize whatever exposures we 5 can, and that's the goal of what we need to do. We 6 know we're not talking about a big risk for the most 7 part. 8 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Well, I appreciate 9 the principals you stated at the end there, because 10 I think when I read the statement here, it's too 11 much of a blanket statement, particularly 12 considering that we're talking about one test. So, 13 we really can't assess the risk fully. We can say, 14 you know, we don't think it's much of a risk based 15 on the fact that I guess no one has gotten terribly 16 sick, but you know, we're basing it on one air 17 sample. 18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 19 Actually, there were over 100 air samples that were 20 done in the ten schools. The one -- 21 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: I'm 22 misunderstanding your testimony then. 23 You're saying that the air sample 24 you're referring to here -- explain to me. 25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Sorry. 113 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: I thought you said 3 you were basing this air sample. 4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: There 5 were over 100 air samples that were done in the 6 school. There was only one that was above a 7 detection limit that was used. And even at that 8 level of 560 nanograms per cubic meter, that's the 9 amount, you'd have to eat one hamburger, if you'd 10 just eat one hamburger to get that exposure over a 11 month time in the school. 12 So, we just use that as the highest 13 example that we found in the school. 14 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Got it. 15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: But 16 that was, you know, 1/100th of all of the samples 17 that were taken. 18 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: It seems to me, 19 you know, what would be a prudent course, because I 20 really agree with you that you have, it's a scary 21 time, people read in the newspaper about whether 22 there will be plastic bottles, or the thalates in 23 the toys that children play with, now to read about 24 PCBs in schools, wouldn't it be the most logical 25 course of action to go out there and come up with a 114 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 systematic, comprehensive testing program. 3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: 4 Absolutely. 5 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: And then to make 6 that transparent. 7 In other words, I'm a parent at, you 8 know, name the school. I'm able to log on and say 9 the school was tested on this day, and this is what 10 was found, and this is why we think it's okay. 11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: You 12 know, testing is so, so complicated. And the amount 13 of tests you do over what period of time, you go in 14 and test one time and you may find something and you 15 may not and it doesn't really give you a big picture 16 of a situation. 17 I think that -- 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: What I want to 19 do is just get a point of clarification. Two 20 different levels of testing we're talking about, one 21 would be to do air and wipe tests, or whatever, and 22 I think what maybe Chairman Gioia is referring to, 23 and I guess I'd like to ask him to clarify it, and 24 that would be, Chairman Gioia, whether or not you 25 would be calling for the testing to determine the 115 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 PCB concentration of part per million of the actual 3 caulking itself, and identifying schools that may 4 have PCBs, you know, greater than 50 part per 5 million in their caulking; would that be the type of 6 testing you're referring to? 7 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: I think so. I 8 think that's the most logical testing. 9 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: And, of course, 10 that would trigger as per the EPA's testimony, any 11 time caulking in excess of 50 PPM the federal rule 12 would mandate removal of the caulking. And so I just 13 wanted to sort of clarify what he was calling for, 14 and the regulatory impact of what that would mean, 15 and I would like to maybe answer that question in 16 that context. 17 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: There is no 18 requirement to test, as the EPA also testified to. 19 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Pardon me. I 20 understand that. I mean, I thought that was the 21 catch-22 of what the EPA was saying, they were 22 saying there is no requirement to test, and we can't 23 recommend anything until we know what the test says. 24 And so that's, full recognition that there's not a 25 federal requirement, for New York City to test. 116 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 In light of the information we have, 3 in light of the concerns, it seems to me the logical 4 step would be to assess the problem and the test. 5 And I guess I'm struggling with the 6 idea, I'm struggling with any rationale of why not 7 to test. I mean, my concern is we're acting like a 8 sick guy who won't go to the doctor because he 9 doesn't want to know how sick he is. And as if that 10 somehow will make him better. So, all I want to 11 know, I mean give me a rationale on why we wouldn't 12 test the 260 schools? 13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: So, you 14 know, I think we all agree with -- 15 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: If you could 16 speak right into the microphone, too. It would be 17 easiest for us to hear you. 18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Sorry. 19 I have a soft voice. Sorry. 20 I think we all agree that a full 21 evaluation of the schools need to be done on a 22 regular basis. Now, when I say full evaluation, I 23 think we were going where you were going, 24 Chairperson Gennaro, in terms of really having 25 people look and see if there is deterioration in 117 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 each school. 3 I don't think, and we don't believe 4 that testing of each school is something that we 5 should be doing now for a number of reasons. One is 6 that, testing, one is that we don't know what 7 background levels in the environment are. So, you 8 know, the levels that we might get on one hit in a 9 school, first of all, probably has no health effects 10 because it's one hit, doesn't mean that anyone is 11 getting exposed to it, but also, it may be the norm 12 in our society. We live in this industrialized 13 society, and so all we may be getting is the normal 14 background levels of, you know, like we have lead 15 all over our streets probably. We have lead in our 16 houses. So, to test without having some guidance out 17 there on what levels we should be looking for -- 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: We could clearly 19 test the level of PCBs in the caulking. I think 20 that's what Councilman Gioia is referring to, and I 21 would tend to -- I would support that approach. 22 The reason why I am focusing first on 23 caulking that's cracking, peeling, crumbling, 24 friable, because that represents the clearest and 25 most present danger to kids in school because that 118 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 is a direct release point of PCBs into the school 3 environment. And if I had a choice between having, 4 you know, fully intact caulk at 1,000 PPMs and 5 crumbling caulking at 500 PPMs, certainly the 6 crumbling caulking has much lower PCB concentration, 7 would be directly releasing PCBs in a physical way 8 into the school environment and should be done 9 first, hence my call when this first came out that 10 we should do the physical inspection. 11 But this is not to, you know, negate 12 the merit of what I would regard of stage two of 13 this whole endeavor, would be to commence, you know, 14 testing protocol that would identify caulking, that 15 would be inconsistent with the federal guidance. 16 Because federal guidance have set the standard of 17 anything more than, you know, 50 PPM should go, and 18 presumably that had some health-based merit attached 19 to it, and we can't ignore the fact that that 20 standard is out there. You know, this Council didn't 21 make it up. We didn't pass it. We didn't promulgate 22 it. The federal government, from on high. 23 Now, maybe it's a function of the 24 regulatory evolution on this that they haven't sort 25 of pulled the trigger and like require testing, but 119 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 that standard of 50 PPM is out there, and presumably 3 it's meaningful. 4 So, I'm here to support Chairman 5 Gioia in his contention that at some point, once 6 we've identified all of those release points because 7 it's crumbling, peeling, flaking, we have to have a 8 policy and a protocol regarding finding out the 9 intact caulk and what levels of PCBs they have. 10 Wouldn't that be right, Chairman 11 Gioia? 12 CHAIRPERSON GIOIA: Yes, that's 13 exactly what I'm trying to say. And I think because 14 we're dealing with really a finite population, I 15 think we're talking about 266 schools here, it seems 16 to me the first thing we should do -- I mean, if 17 it's a matter of cost, which I suspect is the real 18 reason there is reluctance to do it, we should 19 figure out how much that cost and get the money in 20 the budget and go out and do it. 21 You have parents who are rightfully 22 concerned, and the best thing we can do is assess 23 the level of risk their children are in and then go 24 out and fix it. 25 So, thank you. And I'm done with my 120 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 questions. So, thank you, Mr. Chairman. 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Sure. Sure. And 4 just to follow-up on Chairman Gioia's point, we have 5 parents, you know, in this room today who I 6 indicated before had an air filtration device which 7 operated in their son's classroom. They take the 8 filter out to be analyzed, and now this filter, 9 which once was a clean filter is now, you know, 10 hazardous waste. 11 It makes people think, and in the 12 face of the federal standard that says more than 50 13 PPM, it is a concern, and you know, has to be 14 remediated, you know, the missing link would be, in 15 order to make that federal standard real would be to 16 go out and get that information. 17 And, so, this is what we think makes 18 sense and we're looking, I guess, for any kind of 19 reason why you think we shouldn't do that, and I 20 guess, I don't want to speak for Eric, but I mean, 21 we're not fully convinced that a rationale for not 22 doing that has -- that the rationale for not doing 23 that, that's really convincing, has yet to be put 24 forward by your panel. 25 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: I think -- 121 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 I'm sorry, do you want to? 3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: You 4 know, just one thing I want to point out is, without 5 clear guidance on how to mediate and what to use as 6 interim controls, we could be creating a worse 7 situation than we have by disturbing caulking that's 8 in place. 9 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Ah, yes, the 10 Boogeyman. So, like the Boogeyman is now being 11 trotted into the Chambers. And it is certainly the 12 case that every time we do, you know, window 13 renovations, and we do them all the time, we do them 14 everyday, if you're bring in the disturbed, the 15 caulking Boogeyman, then we all should be concerned 16 any time our kids go to a school where there is a 17 window renovation, because that's the ultimate 18 Boogeyman, because they're ripping out all this 19 caulking, creating all this stuff. And, so, I don't 20 think that's appropriate to say that we are making 21 the situation worse. You see what I mean? 22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: You 23 know what? I just want to say that for lead paint we 24 have made a determination on a Citywide level to use 25 interim controls as an acceptable thing and not to 122 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 disturb lead paint. 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes. But lead 4 paint is different than PCBs. It is not a situation 5 of it, you know, volatilizing, and the, you know, 6 federal government did a lot of work on lead paint, 7 Title 10 and the whole thing about, you know, 8 managing the hazard lead paint in place. But the 9 federal standard put forward by the EPA, who are the 10 ultimate regulators of this, is not. 11 And it could have been, if it's more 12 than 50 PPM, we have to watch it, we have to manage 13 it in place, we've got to do this, we've got to do 14 that. That's not what the federal standard said. 15 The federal standard said that if 16 it's more than 50 parts per million it has to go. 17 And it very well could have come up with a policy 18 that said if it's more than 50 PPM, then we have to 19 watch it, we have to manage it, we have to make sure 20 that it's contained, but that's not the policy that 21 they came up with. They said if it's more than 50 22 PPM, it has to go. 23 And, again, I wasn't part of that 24 policy development, but, you know, it is what it is. 25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: My 123 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 interpretation is that's what the laws say. But that 3 there have been no policies put in place on what to 4 do to remediate or to use as standards. 5 And until we really have information, 6 it's hard for us to move this ahead to just go ahead 7 and start pulling out caulking in all situations. In 8 lead, as you said, there's lots of regulations -- 9 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: You would be 10 required to pull it out if you find that it has more 11 than 50 PPM, and you know that. 12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: And we, 13 and I think EPA, was implying that we may start 14 thinking about some kind of interim controls that 15 can enclose the caulking or cover over it so we 16 don't have to go ahead and pull out the existing 17 caulking. 18 So, I think that's what we're looking 19 for. 20 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: But I think what 21 that says is that there is a recognition that the 50 22 PPM standard promulgated by EPA is meaningful on 23 some level and like something has to be done. 24 Although the policy is now that if 25 you find and identify that it's more than 50 PPM, it 124 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 has to go, but, you know, if you could get, you 3 know, EPA to sign off on some notion that says, 4 okay, if you find it's more than 50 PPM, and we want 5 to do something else other than remove it, which at 6 the moment would be violative of the federal 7 mandate, then I guess you're free to work with EPA 8 to get them to agree to something like that, how 9 ever that would work, but I think the idea is that 10 the 50 PPM standard has some health-based merit to 11 it that EPA is not retreating from, they're just in 12 kind of like this regulatory, you know, never never 13 land where they won't make you find out information 14 that would trigger their mandate to remove more than 15 50 PPM and that's what this whole dance that's going 16 on is all about. But that's -- but I want to talk a 17 little bit more about this stage one thing, but 18 first I think in fairness I should recognize some of 19 my other good colleagues who have something to offer 20 on this, and I recognize Council Member Ignizio. 21 Ignizio was first, okay. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER IGNIZIO: Thank you 23 very much. 24 My questions are relating, obviously, 25 to the school which was just in the paper, and it 125 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 was referenced several times, and actually it was 3 Council Member Oddo's constituent, however, the 4 school rests in my district, with regards to what 5 you can tell me about the testing which has either 6 been performed or come back? 7 I can say, and I want to say for the 8 record, as I said to you both privately, that the 9 response from the City agencies has been wonderful. 10 With regards to timeliness, and 11 thoroughness, I can't speak to the epidemiology 12 studies or whatnot, but I can speak to the 13 responsiveness on behalf of the agency. Often this 14 body in its oversight capacity is criticizing 15 agencies for taking too long. Quite frankly, I think 16 it's appropriate, the timing that it took, but I 17 commend you. 18 What can you tell me about PS 53 in 19 Richmond County? 20 MS. GREENBERGER: We did do some 21 testing over the weekend. We did 17 air sample 22 testings and 17 dust wipes. All of the air samples 23 came back non-detect, which means that there was no 24 traces of PCB, even at the level at which we could 25 detect them. Sixteen of the 17 dust wipes came at 126 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 that same level, there was one desk wipe that came 3 back suspiciously different. So, we are retesting 4 that room. We're also testing the room in which the 5 air filter was used. And we should have those 6 results later this week. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER IGNIZIO: So, my 8 understanding is preliminary findings versus final 9 findings, final findings should be available towards 10 the end of the week to be publicly -- 11 MS. GREENBERGER: Correct. Correct. 12 And we did make those initial 13 findings known to the school community this morning. 14 Okay, and my understanding is the 15 parents whom are here sent out the filter to an 16 independent lab. Is that filter able to be 17 reclaimed, if you will, by the City of New York? Or 18 is the testing that were done -- 19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I don't 20 know about reclaiming it, but there is no standard 21 testing methodology for using air filters to 22 determine what the levels of PCB are. So, it's not a 23 scientific methodology. We're not trying to argue 24 that they didn't find anything. But what we don't 25 know is what the levels actually are because usually 127 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 when you do environmental testing or sampling, 3 you're actually getting some sense of how long the 4 test is being done, you know where the filter had 5 been before, you know a train of custody, meaning 6 how it got to the laboratory. So, there are a lot of 7 things that go into environmental testing that, you 8 know, we just don't have enough information on that. 9 We would not use that methodology 10 because it's not based on anything to look at, 11 whether PCBs existed. 12 So, first to be able to say what was 13 there is like is hard based on that information that 14 we got from the air filter. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER IGNIZIO: Fair enough. 16 Can you tell me the average PCBs in the atmosphere 17 that we're breathing right now? Is there any 18 average? 19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Not 20 that we know of. In the air we know levels are 21 really low in general. We don't have good background 22 testing information for indoor spaces that much on a 23 wide, in a wide area, we don't have good information 24 on PCBs in dust or soils. So, that's a real gap that 25 really prevents us from having some comparison 128 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 information to know whether we're finding real 3 excedences over, like we said there was one air test 4 in the eight schools that were just above detect, is 5 that really different than one out of 100, than we 6 find in normal situations, we don't even know that. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER IGNIZIO: Yes, I 8 wondered the same thing. 9 Is it the position of the Department 10 of Health and the Department of Education that you 11 believe that at the levels you're testing there is 12 no significant risk to the children who are 13 occupying the schools in which you have tested? 14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: That's 15 what we're believing, yes. Yes. Because the 16 exposures are not elevated to any great extent, we 17 don't believe there is a significant health risk, 18 correct. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER IGNIZIO: Thank you. 20 I'm just speaking for the laymen of 21 my school, the parents who are calling me, people 22 who are concerned, and understandably so. People 23 want to be assured that when they send their 24 children to school, they're safe, both 25 environmentally and obviously amongst their peers, 129 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 teachers, whatnot. And you know, this goes 3 hand-in-glove with that. So, I think the future will 4 determine a lot more than we have right now. It 5 sounds like there's a lot of questions that need to 6 be answered, both that you all have and that we all 7 have. 8 So, I would hope, Mr. Chairman, that 9 we would continue and follow-up on this issue in 10 Committee hearings to come. 11 Thank you. 12 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: If I could 13 just comment? 14 What you say is so important. We have 15 sent information to the school today. We, of course, 16 working with the principal, information to send home 17 to the parents. We will have a meeting with the 18 parents tomorrow. We will have another meeting with 19 them, if they like, after the final results. 20 It's so important that we continue 21 this communication, and that parents have access to 22 more information than what they're seeing in the 23 media, which is often distorted and inaccurate. 24 So, we actually look for any 25 cooperation, and if you can give us in terms of 130 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 making sure we are transparent and have these lines 3 of communication open. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER IGNIZIO: Yes, Deputy 5 Chancellor. I mean, my office has been in every one, 6 has been invited to every one. 7 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Yes. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER IGNIZIO: As have I 9 believe the Senator's Office and Council Member 10 Oddo. 11 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: I appreciate 12 that. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER IGNIZIO: So, we've 14 been attending every one. 15 One question which was handed to me, 16 quite frankly, I don't know from whom, but I'm happy 17 to ask it, is: Was the room that the filter was in 18 tested? And if not, why not? 19 MS. GREENBERGER: As I just mentioned, 20 that was one that was not tested over the weekend, 21 because we weren't aware of the location, but it was 22 tested recently, once we were made aware of the 23 location. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER IGNIZIO: Okay. And 25 those -- 131 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MS. GREENBERGER: We do not have those 3 results. 4 COUNCIL MEMBER IGNIZIO: Those 5 findings will be by the end of the week? 6 MS. GREENBERGER: Yes. 7 COUNCIL MEMBER IGNIZIO: Okay, thank 8 you very much. 9 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Council Member 10 Gale Brewer. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Thank you very 12 much. 13 And I also do want to thank you for 14 being responsive, both meeting with the parents and 15 with the elected officials. 16 Just in terms of Center School and 17 199, I just want to know if you could update us? I 18 know there were questions from the parents about the 19 windows and the stairwalls, and I think test results 20 they may not have gotten back because they were done 21 later than some of the ones that were done. So, I'm 22 just wondering if you can give us an update on the 23 stairwall and the soil and anything else that you 24 think hasn't been relayed because it was done after 25 the meeting? 132 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: We sent the 3 parents group a very lengthy response just the other 4 day, along with copies of all the test results, and 5 we have advised them that we would be more than 6 happy, once they have had a chance to digest all of 7 that information to come out, answer any additional 8 questions they have, update them as to any further 9 activity. 10 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. And can 11 you just help me to understand the -- I think, I 12 must admit, I was a little confused by DEP because I 13 thought they should have had more protocols that the 14 country could use, but what are the exact State 15 protocols when you find PCBs in the caulk? Is there 16 a particular -- are they supposed to remove some of 17 it, all of it? What exactly is the State protocol? 18 And do you feel, I know that we're all learning 19 about this challenge, but do you feel like you have 20 complied with that State protocol? Do you need more 21 guidance from the State and EPA? 22 MS. GREENBERGER: The State protocol 23 actually is about addressing PCBs and window caulk 24 during renovation. It's not about removing window 25 caulk in and of itself. 133 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 What it says is that if there's PCBs 3 and you're doing renovation, in those areas you need 4 to remove the PCBs. So that guideline, that protocol 5 governs what you do in terms of that renovation 6 project in which PCBs are effected. 7 So, we are following the guidelines 8 the SED put out that say when you renovate remove 9 the PCBs. 10 So, we do do that. The guideline that 11 came out came out and said we recommend that you 12 come up with a protocol -- 13 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Is this a 14 guideline that came out a long time ago or recently? 15 MS. GREENBERGER: The one that came 16 out last July. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. 18 MS. GREENBERGER: Recommended that we 19 look at the HUD guidelines, regarding lead paint 20 protocols, which is exactly what we did, and have 21 developed a set of protocols that we think 22 adequately address the guidelines that the SED had 23 put out, and we are following those. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: And what are 25 the protocols regarding the removal of dust? I mean, 134 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 as I said earlier, we all think of 9/11, and so 3 dust, I don't think meant as much today, then as it 4 does now. So, what are the guidelines that you 5 follow regarding the removal of dust? 6 Because the people from EPA didn't 7 seem to have any guidelines. 8 MS. GREENBERGER: If it's dust that's 9 associated with the removal of a window, for 10 example, that's generated while removing that 11 window, that dust is disposed of in the same way and 12 the same area that that window is disposed of, which 13 is into a container for that kind of waste. 14 After we complete a shift and we have 15 removed whatever work we were doing there, as well 16 as the dust associated with that work, we then wipe 17 down the room. That waste is treated as demolition 18 waste, which is slightly different, but both of 19 those are within accepted guidelines. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: So, obviously 21 the concern at 199 and Center School was that the 22 teachers and the parents didn't have enough protocol 23 information to know that there are certain ways that 24 you wipe down dust. I wouldn't have known that 25 either. 135 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 As one feels that it isn't C and D 3 dust, that it is fact, perhaps got PCBs in it. So, 4 how do we -- 5 MS. GREENBERGER: Well, let me just 6 state one thing. I do want to say on record, when we 7 removed the windows at 199, we removed them by 8 cutting into the mortar, which kept the caulk 9 intact. So, when people say there was PCB dust in 10 the air, we don't think that's true. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: I know that. 12 MS. GREENBERGER: Okay. 13 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: But it's a 14 perception, as well as reality. 15 MS. GREENBERGER: I understand that. I 16 just want to say, from a construction point of view, 17 we contained the caulking. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: The caulking. 19 MS. GREENBERGER: Right. 20 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. 21 How do we then for the future deal 22 with this dust issue? 23 MS. GREENBERGER: If there is dust -- 24 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: There is 25 always dust. 136 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MS. GREENBERGER: I understand. But if 3 there is dust, parents shouldn't be taking it upon 4 themselves to clean that dust. We do have protocols 5 in place to ensure that the contractor who is on 6 site at the end of every shift is cleaning. 7 If the cleaning is not adequate, we 8 should know about it so that we reclean. It should 9 never be the parents' responsibility to do that kind 10 of cleaning. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: I'm just 12 saying this is something to think about, because 13 that's not what happened. Dispute back and forth but 14 it could happen elsewhere. I just think everybody 15 should know what to do about dust. 16 Sometimes it's to call the custodian, 17 or sometimes if it's being done, there are protocols 18 that one can take, and I think that would be 19 something helpful for all of us to know about. 20 MS. GREENBERGER: That's a fair point. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: The other 22 thing I want to ask is, on the soil, how does that 23 get -- presuming that you do the test correctly, and 24 presuming that you find PCBs in the soil, which may 25 not be true wherever you have tested thus far, but 137 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 if you did what would be the remediation? 3 MS. GREENBERGER: Well, as I think the 4 Deputy Chancellor mentioned, we did soil testing. We 5 did find four areas that had concentrations. That 6 requires us to do additional testing, which we are 7 doing right now, and then we will work with all of 8 the relevant agencies, DEC and others, to determine 9 an appropriate remediation plan. If it needs to be 10 remediated, we will do that. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: What's the 12 timing on soil testing? Is it similar to air 13 testing? Or is it a longer time period? 14 I know it's complicated as to how far 15 you go down, et cetera, et cetera. 16 MS. GREENBERGER: I don't know the 17 exact answer. I think it is a little more 18 complicated. We also test the soil at the end of a 19 project. So, it's not something that's done along 20 the way, it's done at the end of a project and then 21 we determine if remediation is necessary. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Could it be 23 done at the beginning of a project also, so that you 24 have some knowledge before the project begins? 25 MS. GREENBERGER: I think in our minds 138 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 the important thing is that -- 3 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Of the 260 4 schools or whatever they are, if there is a capital 5 budget? 6 MS. GREENBERGER: I'm talking about 7 within capital improvement projects. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: That's what I 9 mean. 10 MS. GREENBERGER: Right. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Where there is 12 capital improvement and you're in one of the 200 13 some schools. 14 MS. GREENBERGER: We wouldn't do 15 anything before the end of the project anyway. So, 16 we think that testing at the end of the project is 17 the most appropriate response. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. 19 And do you know in 199 in Center 20 School if the soil tests were part of your response, 21 or is that still forthcoming? 22 MS. GREENBERGER: I think 199 was one 23 of the schools that we tested the soil. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: 199, right? 25 You did test it -- 139 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MS. GREENBERGER: Yes, we did. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: But has that 4 been part of the answer to the parents, do you know? 5 MS. GREENBERGER: Yes, we did. We 6 addressed that in the letter that went back out last 7 week. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. 9 My other question is, do you ever 10 consult with NYCOSH, which is an organization that 11 thinks about the environment? In fact, that's what 12 they do. 13 And, so, I was just wondering, did 14 they agree with the EPA analysis as to what is 15 detectable, et cetera? 16 There is always controversy in terms 17 of numbers. I mean, EPA can say X, an environmental 18 advocacy group might say it's a different number. Do 19 you consult with NYCOSH? 20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: We 21 haven't spoken with NYCOSH in this situation. We 22 have spoken with the Health and Safety people at the 23 UFT, who are involved in a lot of environmental 24 issues that are pretty protective of their 25 population. 140 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 We have also talked to people at 3 Mount Sinai, who both have expertise in health 4 issues and exposure issues, as well as some of the 5 people there who have more environmentally related 6 expertise. We've also talked to people at CDC, 7 talked to people at the National Institutes of 8 Health, who have expertise in PCBs. 9 So, we've been trying to put our 10 fingers in different places to try to -- 11 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: So, people 12 agree with the 50 PPMs as a baseline? Is that 13 something that's an agreed-upon number? 14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: That's 15 the legal standard. 16 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: I don't know 17 -- 18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I don't 19 think we've actually discussed that, whether that 20 level. But I think what it is, is it's based on 21 research that's been done. And I just want to point 22 out, and I think you know, is that the research 23 that's been done has primarily been related to 24 occupational exposures and to communities that have 25 had large PCB exposure. 141 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 So, there's not a lot of information 3 on exposures that we're finding like intact, like 4 intact caulk. 5 So, we don't have a lot of 6 information there, and that's why we've been calling 7 around to really try to understand it better. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: You might 9 check with NYCOSH, too. They might have a different 10 response. 11 The final question is, of the 260 12 some schools, do you know how many are involved with 13 capital projects? 14 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Just for the 15 record, we do not know where this number of 260 -- 16 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Oh, I don't 17 know either, I'm sorry. 18 How about of the schools that were 19 built using your 1985 as a dateline, baseline, so 20 schools built before 1985, even though it's really 21 the sixties and the seventies? 22 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Much, much 23 more than 266. 24 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. 25 So, do you know how many of those 142 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 schools are involved with capital projects? Or 3 window caulking -- 4 MS. GREENBERGER: Just as a baseline, 5 I don't know that number offhand. I will tell you at 6 the moment we have 260 schools that have active 7 projects and in the course of this plan there are 8 several hundred projects ongoing, many of them are 9 window replacements, and exterior modernizations 10 that would address this issue. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. 12 I don't want to alarm anybody because 13 that's not the purpose, but in a very clearly 14 written statement, is there something that you could 15 put on the website of those schools that says your 16 school was built before 1985? We are taking every 17 precaution to do blah-blah-blah, that states what 18 we're talking about here? 19 Because even though we think the 20 whole world is watching and paying attention today, 21 people have busy lives and they don't. When it's 22 something local they will. 23 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: One of the 24 things we're doing in terms of trying to make sure 25 we have good communication on this issue, is now 143 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 when anytime a project begins, we always sit down 3 with the principal and the school community, if the 4 principal wants us to, and talk about, for example, 5 if there is possibly asbestos or if there is 6 possibly lead. 7 We will now be adding PCBs, we'll be 8 able to talk about the dust protocols and all of 9 those things, and we will make sure that's part of 10 our standard operating procedure. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. 12 So, 199 and Center School, we didn't 13 know about this problem, so we didn't talk about it 14 in advance; is that correct? 15 At 199 and Center School we didn't 16 know? 17 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Correct. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Because 19 believe me these parents would have been testing and 20 on top of it, right? 199 and Center, they would have 21 been on top of it? 22 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Correct. 23 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. 24 I mean, it's very disturbing because 25 I think people are understandably worried, and I 144 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 think, obviously, communication is important, but I 3 think there is a whole lot of work to be done in 4 terms of the protocols, even though you say the 5 custodians and I think the world of Robert Troeller 6 and his members, and you say that the construction 7 people will be doing X, Y and Z, you still need to 8 tell teachers and even parents what the protocols 9 are so that everybody is on the same page. 10 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Yes. 11 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: And I would 12 also suggest that, and I know you're working on 13 this, how you dispose of either the wiping down rags 14 or the windows themselves, needs to be clear to 15 everybody's concern. So that everybody is on the 16 same page. 17 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Absolutely. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Thank you. 19 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Thank you. 20 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Thank you. 21 I just have a couple of questions, if 22 you don't mind. 23 Concerning the 199 and reading your 24 testimony, it says that all protocols were followed, 25 and I'm just curious how all protocols were followed 145 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 if, in fact, parents were cleaning up dust and 3 children, approximately ten days after the 4 construction? 5 Do you know what I mean? That's a 6 very legitimate question. 7 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Yes. 8 I want to talk about two things, all 9 protocols were followed in terms of the removal. We 10 had one complaint about dust which we addressed 11 immediately. It's documented. 12 I can't address what the parents were 13 doing because we had no knowledge of it. 14 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: But the 15 principal must have had knowledge that parents and 16 students, teachers and students were cleaning up 17 dust for approximately ten days after. There is no 18 way, in my opinion, that a principal or an assistant 19 principal should not have had knowledge of that. 20 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Parents and 21 children should not have been cleaning up the dust. 22 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: It says, I 23 believe it was teachers and students. Teachers and 24 parents. And I'm reading, I think this is, Kathleen, 25 your testimony, it says, "However, all dust 146 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 protocols were in place during construction." 3 Now, that may have been the case 4 during construction, but if it was so much dust 5 where they were constantly wiping for ten days 6 after, there were not enough protocols in place in 7 order to make sure it was thoroughly cleaned. 8 I have a concern about that, to 9 ensure that things are being done right. 10 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Well, if 11 there was dust that wasn't cleaned up at the end of 12 the day, it wasn't done right. Because school 13 personnel should not be cleaning up dust. 14 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Do you know, I'm 15 reading your testimony, it says, "We did not test 16 the building waste material at PS 199." Is that 17 because, as what you said, Ms. Greenberger, was that 18 the caulking in the windows was not disturbed and 19 that they cut around the windows and took the entire 20 windows out? 21 MS. GREENBERGER: No, that is because 22 when the SED protocol came out, we took some time to 23 research what our protocols would be and when to put 24 them in place, and how to put them in place. They 25 went into effect in January of 2008, at the same 147 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 time that the windows were being removed. So, there 3 was a transition period in which that protocol, that 4 revised protocol, was being fully implemented, and 5 we did not test the waste disposal at 199. 6 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Because of the 7 transition in protocol? 8 MS. GREENBERGER: That's correct. 9 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Was that the 10 guidelines that was made reference to that was 11 released in June of 2007? 12 MS. GREENBERGER: That's correct. 13 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: So, from June of 14 2007 -- 15 MS. GREENBERGER: That's correct. 16 There was a delay. We did take some time to do some 17 research to determine what the most appropriate 18 course of action would be, knowing that we have a 19 very large inventory of schools, that this protocol 20 would affect a number of schools. We wanted to make 21 sure that we look at the guidelines that were 22 suggested by SED, and revised our general condition 23 specification that then went into all contracts. 24 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Those guidelines 25 were State Education Department guidelines? You said 148 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 SED? 3 MS. GREENBERGER: The original 4 guidelines, that's correct. 5 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Just curiously 6 knowing that we have schools, approximately 266 7 schools with caulking that concerns PCBs, and that 8 basically, were there guidelines in place prior to 9 these guidelines being issued, and prior to you 10 implementing the guidelines some time in January 11 2008. 12 MS. GREENBERGER: There weren't 13 guidelines on PCBs, but there were guidelines in 14 place governing lead paint, and they are identical. 15 So, we were following similar protocols. The 16 difference is the testing of the waste materials, 17 and that was not done at 199. We are in compliance 18 with the SED guideline now. 19 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Now you are. 20 And who are, basically I heard you 21 say we would put a protocol in place where all of 22 the schools will be checked on a periodic basis; did 23 I hear that correctly? 24 MS. GREENBERGER: Yes. 25 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Have custodials 149 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 been trained in this particular protocol? Or the 3 inspection? Or do you just expect them to know how 4 to see stuff and then report it? 5 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: We expect 6 them to be able to look at caulking that is 7 disintegrating. 8 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. And that 9 inspection is inside the actual classroom? Or inside 10 and outside? And what if, in fact, the caulking is 11 on the third, fourth or fifth floor outside, how do 12 you expect them to inspect that? 13 I mean, for example, I can visualize 14 a five- or six-story school, how are they going to 15 get outside to inspect the outside caulking? 16 I'm just throwing that up because 17 it's a very good question -- 18 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: It's a very 19 good question, but I don't have -- 20 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON:-- If I might say 21 so myself. And I'm not an engineer. 22 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: But what I 23 will happily do is get the answer to that and share 24 with you the circular that we send out. 25 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: So, you sent out 150 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 a circular to the custodians? 3 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Yes. 4 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: If you could 5 share that with the Committees, we'd appreciate 6 that. 7 Now, I visited a school up in the 8 Bronx, up in Co-op City. I believe it was 3 153, in 9 which many parents were there and very concerned 10 about the situation. I believe you had School 11 Construction Authority, you had Department of Health 12 officials there, and maybe another agency. 13 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Right. 14 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And I listened 15 for the period of time in which I was there, and 16 there was one or two classrooms in the school that 17 had a level that was I guess higher than what the 18 norm would be. 19 And I guess I'm questioning in what 20 was the protocol in communicating, one, with the 21 parents; number two, communicating with the parents, 22 teachers and everyone there, as to what was being 23 done. Number three, as far as results of the 24 caulking survey, which everyone received at this 25 meeting approximately ten days ago when I was there. 151 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 But was this survey given out to parents way before 3 the meeting? Because in my opinion, they should have 4 been communicating with the parents instantaneously, 5 transparently, and not waiting to a meeting of 6 April, let's say ten days ago, in order to give them 7 the results of the testing and what was being done. 8 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: The first 9 thing we did, well the first thing, we began the 10 testing. The second thing was, we sent a letter 11 signed by the Health Commissioner and the 12 Chancellor. 13 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: I saw that 14 letter. 15 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: To all the 16 parents. We backpacked it out. 17 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: At that school 18 or through all of the schools? 19 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: At the eight 20 schools where we were doing the testing. 21 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: So that's about 22 eight out of nine schools, I believe? 23 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Eight school 24 buildings. 25 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Eight school 152 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 buildings, okay. 3 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Yes. Because 4 as you know, some of them had more than one school. 5 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 6 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: We then, 7 when we had the final test results, we shared them 8 with the parents, we had the meetings with the 9 parents. 10 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: So, that's it? 11 You shared it with parents, you had a meeting with 12 parents? 13 Were all of the concerns of the 14 parents answered? 15 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Yes. 16 As far as, I know the questions have 17 been answered. What we have told each of the 18 principals, and in this case I'm being told the 19 principal had all of the information in advance of 20 the meeting, so there was some time for the school 21 to be prepared, is that if parents continue to have 22 questions, we will continue to meet with them until 23 they are comfortable. 24 We have a situation here where the 25 evidence indicates that there is no significant 153 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 health risk, and we want to communicate that to our 3 parents. We do not want our parents concerned in a 4 way that they don't need to be. 5 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 6 Can you push your mike a little bit 7 towards the center so I can hear you a little more 8 clearly? 9 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Yes. Sorry. 10 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: I heard you 11 but... 12 Now, with respects to, so my 13 understanding is, considering all things considered, 14 I've heard the testimony of the EPA, of the doctor 15 from the Department of Health and other officials, 16 and basically what I'm hearing is that the exposure 17 level is very minimum and it would really not have a 18 negative impact on the children's health, no more so 19 than normal of them breathing air or having a 20 hamburger or cheeseburger; is that what I'm hearing? 21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: That's 22 what you're hearing. 23 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. Now, so 24 what is the protocol -- have you put out a protocol 25 as to the overall inspection on a continuous basis? 154 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Is it every quarter, every six months, every year? 3 And does the custodian, or whoever is doing the 4 inspection, must they sign a certification that 5 they've actually done it? And what room? And what 6 they found in each room? What's the protocol? 7 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: That 8 protocol, which is a piece, only a piece of 9 everything is a monthly written report, all of which 10 we'll share with you. 11 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: A monthly 12 written report? 13 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Yes. 14 But what I think is important, what I 15 hope everyone hears today, is that we are at the 16 beginning of conversations with a lot of different 17 stakeholders, the EPA, the DEC, the Department of 18 Health, the State SED, and we have more to do in 19 terms of exploring this situation. 20 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay, I'm 21 hearing you loud and clear. 22 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Thank you. 23 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: I guess the 24 question that begs to be asked is, why you're 25 waiting until this exposure by the papers, and why 155 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 wasn't a protocol in place all of this other time, 3 considering the fact that all of these schools could 4 have possibly been situations that had existed for a 5 long time. 6 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Well, these 7 situations have existed for a long time. 8 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Mm-hmm. 9 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: We have this 10 new protocol from the State. We are in compliance 11 with it. We are looking to other agencies for 12 guidance. There is no -- I know there has been a lot 13 of discussion about we should go out and test the 14 caulk. There is no requirement to test the caulk. 15 We're not sure what the responses should be, if the 16 tests were done. And we're looking for guidance. 17 We're looking for guidance in terms of what the 18 short term management should be and what the 19 long-term solutions should be. 20 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Well, I would 21 like for you, if there is any changes in protocol, 22 would you please advise the various committees that 23 are holding this hearing today on any protocol 24 changes that may take place? 25 I heard during the testimony one of 156 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 you responded, and I don't know which one, is that 3 where there may be caulking that may be cracked, or 4 friable, that you don't know whether or not you're 5 going to remove it all, that there is maybe a 6 possibility that you may encase it. 7 Who mentioned that, I'm sorry? 8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: We 9 don't remember who mentioned it, but yes. 10 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: But did you hear 11 it also? 12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Did I 13 say it or did I hear it, I don't remember. Not 14 specifically. But it will be addressed, if there is 15 a situation of cracking or deteriorating caulking, 16 it will be addressed by the schools. And if I could 17 just add one thing. 18 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay, but the 19 question is when? 20 Because right now, let me just make 21 my point, we got the regulations in June or July of 22 2006, and they weren't implemented until six months 23 later. And so the question I ask is, if there is 24 cracking right now, what is going to be the protocol 25 immediately to deal with that, and not six months or 157 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 a year later. 3 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: We are in 4 discussions right now about what we are going to do 5 about that. 6 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 7 So, if you can, as soon as you make a 8 decision, not hopefully a month or two months from 9 now, can you get back to us with the appropriate 10 answer? 11 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Sure. 12 Absolutely. 13 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Because I think 14 that those are the questions that parents are 15 asking, and rightfully so. 16 Even though I have heard what you and 17 experts have to say, as far as the exposure level is 18 not, in the opinion of some people, not hazardous, 19 but if you listen to other experts, any exposure is 20 hazardous. Any exposure. 21 Am I wrong in that, Doctor? 22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Any 23 exposure, we don't think any exposure is hazardous, 24 because at very low -- it's like a dose of anything. 25 You know, at very low exposures, you're probably not 158 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 going to get much impact at all. 3 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: At high 5 levels, like in workers where you're getting lots of 6 impact, that's where you're going to see health 7 effects. 8 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: I just 10 want to also emphasize that the big picture for a 11 second -- 12 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Can you put your 13 mike up a little closer, please? 14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: Sorry. 15 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Thank you. 16 That's okay. 17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: What we 18 see nationally, what we know is that there is PCBs 19 all over the place. There is PCBs in buildings 20 throughout the country, this is just not New York 21 City. 22 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Right. 23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER LEIGHTON: There's 24 PCBs in the food we eat. 25 What we're also seeing at the same 159 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 time is even though, they're going down over time, 3 and even though they exist in all these places, in 4 our schools, around the country, kids are not having 5 that much PCB in their blood lead levels. So, this 6 tells us something, that even though it's there, 7 we're not seeing huge levels in the blood. So, that 8 means the exposure is not occurring. Now, not to say 9 there is none. There is some. And we know that us 10 older people have higher PCB levels than our 11 children. We're glad for that. 12 But I think we really need to see 13 that whole thing in perspective to really get a 14 sense of what health effects could be, given the 15 lowering and lowering levels in the blood. 16 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. Now, what 17 was the protocols in the schools, as far as, you 18 know, in, in fact, they had wiped and then they 19 sampled it and it was at a level that was higher 20 than norm, my understanding is basically they 21 wet-wiped the dust around the windows; isn't that 22 correct? Is the protocol of cleaning up, in the 23 school PS 153, where the levels were higher than 24 what the federal level guidelines or State, my 25 understanding is that they took just a wet rag and 160 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 wiped up the dust and what have you and then tested 3 it again, and wiped it again, and it fell below the 4 level. 5 Was there anything, am I wrong in 6 what I just explained or was there a different 7 protocol in order to clean up one or two sites that 8 were above the level of the federal standards at PS 9 153? 10 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: We did a 11 thorough cleaning of the entire building. 12 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. I hear 13 you, and I appreciate a thorough cleaning. Believe 14 me, I understand. But what does that mean? Can you 15 explain to me, someone explain to me what was the 16 protocol? Was it basically taking a vacuum and 17 vacuuming everything and then taking a wet rag and 18 wiping everything? Did you use a chemical, no 19 chemicals or what? Can somebody just explain that to 20 me, what occurred? 21 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Ross, can 22 you? 23 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: If you don't 24 mind, just identify yourself for the record, and 25 your title, and you may begin. 161 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MR. HOLDEN: My name is Ross Holden. 3 I'm Vice President and General Counsel to the School 4 Construction Authority. 5 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay, Ross. 6 Thank you. 7 MR. HOLDEN: The normal cleaning is 8 general household cleaning with detergent. Nothing 9 special. The idea is whatever dust is there, you 10 just want to get it up. So, it would be water and 11 detergent. If vacuuming is necessary, you know, 12 vacuuming. 13 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. And, so, 14 basically that was a protocol that was used at 153? 15 MR. HOLDEN: When we cleaned up later, 16 yes. That was the protocol we used at 153. It was a 17 good custodial house cleaning. 18 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. And that, 19 just, you know, because a thorough cleaning is what, 20 in general what happened, but what was the protocol, 21 and that's what I wanted to know specifically, like 22 you said, a general good house cleaning. 23 MR. HOLDEN: Right. 24 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 25 MR. HOLDEN: We used vacuum cleaners 162 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 on porous surfaces, on carpets, and then on any hard 3 surfaces it was water and custodial detergent. 4 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And then the 5 appropriate testing after that was well below the 6 federal level, at the one or two sites that were 7 sited; is that correct? 8 MR. HOLDEN: Yes. We tested two other 9 times in 153 and it came back as non-detectable. 10 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 11 Thank you very much. I appreciate it. 12 Jim. 13 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Thank you. 14 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 15 Chairman Jackson. 16 I just have to take, I have to 17 strongly disagree with the answer to the question, 18 Deputy Chancellor Grimm, regarding Chairman 19 Jackson's question about what would be done with, 20 you know, cracking, peeling, flaking, friable 21 caulking that we can assume contains PCBs. 22 It would have been the minimum that 23 at least I expected here today that the 24 Administration and the SCA would have clearly 25 articulated a policy that wherever we find cracking, 163 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 peeling, flaking, crumbling PCB containing caulking, 3 that we are totally committed to finding out where 4 it is, you know, getting it removed, you know, using 5 the proper protocols to find out where it is, get it 6 cleaned up by professionals and we just haven't 7 really heard any of that. 8 And I understand that this whole 9 science of PCB clean-ups are very much in its 10 infancy. It's not like asbestos, it's not like lead, 11 which is really mature, people know what they're 12 doing, people aren't like floundering, and this is a 13 situation where the federal government is 14 floundering, the State is floundering, the City is 15 floundering, quite frankly, and I'm not confident 16 that even with the window replacements and the 17 protocols that are used to, you know, clean up the 18 dust that is generated from window replacements are 19 really satisfactory. 20 So, for one, the Counsel to the 21 Committee is Samara Swanston, I would like you to 22 forward to her this policy as it exists now for 23 doing the cracking, peeling, flaking, caulking. 24 You indicated that there was a 25 circular which articulates the policy, although 164 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Chairman Jackson brought out the point that we don't 3 know what we're going to do for sort of the higher 4 floors on the outside. That's kind of like a blind 5 spot there. So, we've got the circular, we've got 6 the forms, we've got some folks that are going to 7 fill them out, and, you know, do the inspection. 8 I have no idea what Robert Troeller 9 and 891 think of this, and they're not here today to 10 speak for themselves, and, you know, what happens. 11 You know, kind of like a flow chart of what happens. 12 Here is the policy, here is the forms, here is how 13 often they get filled out. You know, here's what's 14 going to happen when, or here is what we're going to 15 use to make a decision on what happens, you know, to 16 the caulking, which is identified. Who is going to 17 go out there once it's identified by a member of 18 Local 891, you know, who goes out there to see what 19 this stuff looks like, and I'm very, very 20 disappointed. I think the people of the City of New 21 York should be disappointed that the people who are 22 in charge of the situation couldn't come forward 23 today with the absolute bear minimum, the absolute 24 bear minimum is that if it's cracking, peeling 25 flaking, we're going to find out where it is and 165 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 we're going to get rid of it. And we didn't even 3 hear that today. 4 So, this has been very, very 5 disappointing. And to go further than that, to, you 6 know, stage two, as I call it, with PCBs, they're in 7 caulking in school, then they have high 8 concentrations of PCB in it, and if you believe that 9 the EPA's standard, which is based on some sort of, 10 you know, health criterion, you know, one has got to 11 believe that we've got to have a policy bump beyond 12 the cracking, peeling caulking to dealing with 13 caulking that has high concentrations of PCBs, and 14 that means some sort of testing protocol. 15 And, so, I'm very dissatisfied, and 16 I'm wondering how you thought you were going to come 17 here today and getting away with articulating a 18 policy that doesn't conclusively state that, you 19 know, that PCB-containing caulk that's crumbling and 20 is deteriorating, we are going to figure out a way 21 to identify that and get rid of it. And how did you 22 think that you could come here today and not 23 articulate such a policy. What was your thought 24 process that led you to come and to think that you 25 could sort of sell that in this room? 166 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: What we came 3 here today to do was to have a discussion about a 4 problem that is emerging, and I hoped to persuade 5 you that we are working very hard with all 6 stakeholders with many agencies at every level of 7 government and with many of the groups with whom we 8 deal on a daily basis to come up with a coordinated 9 approach, a short-term approach and a long-term 10 approach to the situation. 11 I also hoped that I would be able to 12 persuade you that in the schools where we have 13 tested, we have found no evidence that would 14 indicate any significant health risk, so that we 15 could all assure our parents and the people that are 16 in our schools that we are working hard on this, 17 that there is no emergency, no great health risk, 18 and we are going to continue to pursue it. 19 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Our own 20 Department of Health, the person sitting to your 21 right, in her statement says that cracking, peeling, 22 that poses a risk. 23 The private conversations I had with 24 Commissioner Frieden, also indicated, is perfectly 25 responsible, and, again, I don't want to speak for 167 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 him, it was the responsible position to take that if 3 it contains PCBs, and it's cracking, peeling, 4 flaking, you've got to get it out of there. 5 And I understand that the health of 6 the kids is a consideration, right? 7 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Absolutely. 8 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Is a 9 consideration but people who -- but there are other 10 things that factor into the equation and when I 11 first, came forward and was going to call for 12 testing, there were people from the Bloomberg 13 Administration that contacted me and said, no, no, 14 you can't call for testing. You can't call for 15 testing because calling for testing would not be 16 responsible. And now I realize that the reason that 17 calling for testing would not be responsible in 18 their eyes, is that if you do the testing and you 19 find out it's more than 50 PPM, then the stuff has 20 to get yanked out and that costs a lot of money. 21 So, there is a fiscal element to this 22 whole thing, but we're trying to, you know, do 23 everything to sort of maximize our concerns for 24 kids' health, while keeping an eye on the 25 pocketbook, and I understand that. 168 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 But to me, it's beyond the pale to 3 come forward and saying even cracking, peeling, 4 friable, you know, we have to put that through some 5 sort of black box and some sort of decisiontry to 6 figure out whether we're actually going to be 7 removing it. And that's just not acceptable. 8 So, we can belabor this all day. I'm 9 sure we're going to have a lot of supporting 10 testimony from experts that are going to come 11 forward, we're going to be hearing from the UFT and 12 others, but to me it's simply unacceptable that on 13 April 29th, after all the stories, after all the 14 hue-ha of the last couple of weeks that it's the 15 Bloomberg Administration's, you know, contention, 16 that yes we're going to at least identify cracking, 17 peeling, flaking, crumbling, but we're really not 18 sure what we're going to do with that, and I would 19 say wrong answer. 20 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: We are 21 working in conjunction with many others to figure 22 out what the correct and short-term and long-term 23 approaches should be. 24 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, so -- 25 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: We do not 169 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 have those answers yet. 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: And that's 4 unfortunate. And the one conclusive answer that you 5 put forward I, you know, contend is the wrong 6 answer. 7 The bear minimum, while some would 8 say, you know, calling for testing of every school, 9 and, you know, finding out every piece of caulking 10 that's more than 50 parts per million, you know, 11 certainly that's something that should come after 12 what should be the immediate concern, a concern that 13 should be apparent to anyone involved in this 14 process, is that if it contains PCBs, cracking, 15 peeling, crumbling, it's gotta go. I thought this 16 hearing would at least accomplish that. It didn't. 17 That's a disappointment. 18 So, with regard to stuff that we 19 would like to have from you, and I'll beg the 20 indulgence of the Committee Counsel, would be two 21 things: this whole protocol for this whole cracking, 22 peeling, flaking, crumbling, the circular, the 23 policy, what happens, who gets it, what kind of team 24 would be called in once it's identified to take a 25 look and make that decision on whether it's going to 170 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 be removed or not, what kind of contractors are 3 standing in the wings in order to do that, it's my 4 presumption that this is a policy that they're 5 putting forward today that has, that you've thought 6 out on some level -- 7 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: As I said 8 earlier, we will be looking to regulatory agencies 9 -- 10 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: But whatever you 11 have now, whatever you have now, because you 12 indicated that like we got something and it's a form 13 and it's a circular. So, whatever it is, whatever 14 stage of completion or, you know, non-completion, 15 you know, it exists on some level, and that's what 16 we would need, and if that could be sent to the 17 Committee Counsel, she'll identify herself to you 18 after the hearing and give you her thought. Her name 19 is Samara Swanston. We would like to have that. 20 In addition, the second item is this 21 State Education Department protocol on the 22 preparation and clean-up for window replacements. 23 Presumably that is something that is already 24 promulgated, well known and able to be transmitted 25 to us. 171 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Of course. 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: We would like to 4 have that as well. 5 And, so, those are the two things 6 that I would ask of you, and I know that, you know, 7 notwithstanding the colloquy that we had during this 8 hearing, certainly, you know, you certainly regard 9 these issues, as just as important as we do at the 10 Council. 11 You know, I'm not questioning for a 12 minute the deep commitment of this panel, and, you 13 know, the staff here today, to finding solutions 14 that work for this problem. It's just my contention, 15 unfortunately, that what's been put forward today 16 falls short of the mark. 17 I have confidence that that is not 18 always going to be the case, and I look forward to 19 getting those materials from you and, you know, 20 working with you cooperatively to the place where we 21 all want to be. 22 And, so, with that said, let me thank 23 you for your appearance before us today, and for 24 your dedication, which was never in question, and 25 thank you for appearing before us today. 172 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 DEPUTY CHANCELLOR GRIMM: Thank you. 3 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, one 4 and all, from the Administration. 5 Our next witness will be Randi, Randi 6 Weingarten, the President of the UFT. A pleasure to 7 have you with us today, Madam President. 8 Just hang on one second. We're joined 9 by Council Member Tom White. 10 Madam President, it is our policy in 11 this commitment to swear in all of our panels, thank 12 you for doing that. 13 I would ask the Counsel to the 14 Committee to swear in the panel, after which you 15 could state your name for the record and proceed 16 with your good testimony. 17 MS. SWANSTON: Do you swear or affirm 18 to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 19 the truth today? 20 MS. WEINGARTEN: Yes. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, thank you. 22 (Witness sworn.) 23 MS. WEINGARTEN: So, with me is one of 24 our industrial hygienists. 25 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, speak 173 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 right into the microphone. 3 MS. WEINGARTEN: Is that better? 4 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: That's better, 5 yes. 6 MS. WEINGARTEN: Okay. 7 And the person to my right that is 8 with me is Chris Proctor. She is one of our 9 industrial hygienists at the UFT. We have for the 10 last 20 years actually built a very robust safety 11 and health program, and Chris is one of these folks 12 who is an unsung hero, who essentially works, I 13 don't know how she does it, 20 hours, if there is a 14 problem they always see her at like three or four 15 o'clock in the morning if they're there. 16 I do want to actually say, I don't 17 know if the Board of Ed has left or not, but I will 18 tell you, and I didn't hear the entire testimony, 19 but the weekend between when, and I thought the 20 Daily News did very responsible reporting on this, 21 and what they did was they didn't just make 22 everybody, they actually told people in advance they 23 were going to do this reporting and things like 24 that, they have really attempted to be very 25 responsible, and you know that I have often been 174 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 criticized by the Daily News, but what they did was 3 they actually alerted the Board of Education and us 4 to this issue a week or so in advance, and I will 5 tell you that the Board of Education, and I don't 6 quite understand why they have kind of lawyered up 7 these days, because the Board of Education that 8 weekend before the Daily News article showed up, did 9 a huge clean-up job in the seven schools where there 10 was some, let me call it what you just did Council 11 Member, Councilman, cracking, peeling, flaking, 12 crumbling PCBs. 13 And, so, what we're asking for in our 14 testimony, and what I think others would do or are 15 doing, is some kind of very responsible protocols. 16 So, instead of my reading my very 17 first two pages of the testimony, let me just go 18 through what the protocol is. 19 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Sure. 20 MS. WEINGARTEN: It's something that 21 where we don't know a lot about PCBs, but we do know 22 about a quarter of our schools have them in the 23 caulk, and that there needs to be, because the 24 research particularly as it affects people who may 25 be pregnant and their children or fetuses, because 175 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 the research is not yet there conclusively one way 3 or the other, it feels like we have to have a better 4 safe than sorry approach. 5 And given that the City, you know, 6 look what happened, the City in 1991, under David 7 Dinkins, when we were really having a bad fiscal 8 time, and Ed Stansik, whether he was right or not, 9 came up and said there is an asbestos crisis, and we 10 don't know where the asbestos is, the school system 11 was closed for two weeks, when there was no money in 12 the budget, to try to figure out where the asbestos 13 was or wasn't, when we already had evidence that it 14 took long-term asbestos exposure to really be an 15 issue. 16 So, all we're asking for now is a 17 better safe than sorry approach. Nobody, you know, 18 this Board of Ed, Michael Bloomberg, Joel Klein, you 19 know, if five years from now there is terrible 20 research on this that emerges that says, oh my God, 21 for pregnant women, this is a bad issue, they're not 22 going to be around anymore to say why didn't you do 23 something. 24 And, so, that's frankly why I don't 25 understand, and that's why I think that Sharon 176 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Greenberger, Kathleen Grimm, they actually tried to 3 do a decent job. Who I am concerned about is Dr. 4 Frieden, because Dr. Frieden is the one who keeps 5 saying, well, there's more PCBs if you eat a 6 hamburger, or there's more PCBs if you eat some 7 fish, but to us the same kind of situation happened 8 in terms of asbestos and in terms of dust control. 9 So, if you're thinking about 10 asbestos, if you're thinking about dust control, if 11 you're thinking about PCBs, you think about the same 12 protocols. 13 Okay, number one: Immediately 14 implement more stringent dust controls and improve 15 clean-up and housekeeping procedures for those 16 schools with current exterior masonry window removal 17 and replacement projects. 18 Number two: Follow published best 19 practices for the removal of exterior caulking that 20 is assumed to contain PCBs. 21 Best practices for the maintenance 22 and removal of caulking include using tools with 23 vacuum attachments, and covering exposed soil with 24 protective covering. 25 Number three: Include the removal of 177 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 PCB caulk and other PCB building materials as part 3 of the capital plan. The City budget should include 4 any available federal, State or City funding to pay 5 for the removal of PCB caulk, and other PCB building 6 materials where necessary, once the scope and cost 7 of such a project can be determined. 8 So, nobody is saying take the whole 9 City budget, capital budget now and to this. Let's 10 figure out what the cost is. Let's figure out and 11 you'll see that's in terms of number four, conduct a 12 survey on the condition of caulking in schools 13 constructed or renovated prior to 1980. Determine 14 the scope of the problem is actually the first step 15 in deciding how to address it Citywide and that kind 16 of survey would help assess the need for corrective 17 action. 18 So, you had a really good way of 19 saying it, cracking, peeling, flaking, crumbling. If 20 there was an assessment done of the 200 and some odd 21 schools that actually have PCB in their caulk, then 22 we could see whether things are cracking, flaking, 23 peeling or maybe just cracking and not flaking and 24 peeling, but that's the point here, conduct a 25 survey. And then once the survey is conducted, 178 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 develop and implement procedures for matching caulk 3 so that it is in good condition. These procedures 4 must include preventing the disturbance of caulk and 5 the release of contaminants. 6 And then, finally, create a City, DOE 7 Division of School Facilities, SCA, Response and 8 Assessment Unit to immediate investigate reports of 9 damaged PCB caulk in schools and quickly clean-up 10 possible contamination. 11 So, ultimately, and I'll get to the 12 last issue in a second, but ultimately this is a 13 very common sense, there are words that are bigger 14 than I even use sometimes, but this is a very common 15 sense approach. Figure out the schools that have PCB 16 in caulk, then do an assessment to say is it in good 17 condition, or bad condition? And the schools that 18 are in bad condition, get them into the capital plan 19 as quickly and possible, see what the scope is. And 20 then have a swat team, so then God forbid, all of a 21 sudden if there is cracking, peeling, flaking and 22 crumbling, that gets fixed and dealt with right now 23 so that we have a standard in schools, and I'm sorry 24 for standards sounds tough, undetectibility. And we 25 can measure that by whatever kind of instruments 179 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 there are, but that should be the standard. Frankly, 3 it's the standard that they use the weekend before 4 the Daily News report was issued, and it should be 5 the standard. They know how to do it. They mobilized 6 very quickly when there was an emergency. That 7 should be the standard. 8 Last is this: I said this when I 9 started, we don't know, that's why we actually wrote 10 a letter to NIOSH asking them to do this research, 11 we just don't know what the long-term effects could 12 be of PCBs, particularly on a group of women who may 13 be our teachers and may be parents who have fetuses. 14 We don't know. And I don't want to be in a position 15 to say there is a problem or there isn't a problem, 16 unless we know. Better safe than sorry to do this 17 preventative work now and also ask the researchers 18 to do what they do well, which is research, and ask 19 NIOSH and EPA to come up with a standard to make 20 sure that our children and our workers, whether they 21 be 891-A, DC 37 workers or educators, that they are 22 protected and safe. Thank you. 23 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. Thank 24 you, Madam President. It would have been a great 25 relief had the Administration come in here and 180 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 articulated a position and just a concept as cogent 3 and common sense as yours. 4 I, when this happened, basically 5 called for the same thing. While I have some level 6 of new concern for intact caulk that may contain 7 very high levels of PCBs, certainly the highest 8 priority, and I say this as a scientist, although a 9 geologist, that the highest priority would be that 10 caulk that we can reasonably assume contains PCBs 11 that is in a condition where it is directly in a 12 release in PCBs into the school environment, and 13 some people were criticizing me in my first 14 statement for not going like further than that, and 15 I said, look, there will be time to do stage two, 16 but, you know, stage one is find out where PCBs are 17 being directly released into the school environment, 18 figure out where they are, get people that know how 19 to do the physical inspection, which is not nearly 20 as complicated as the complicated chemical testing 21 and everything else, and get it identified, get it 22 removed and, you know, now we have the unfortunate 23 situation where the Administration has come forward, 24 you know, notwithstanding their sort of best effort 25 that doesn't commit to doing that. It commits on 181 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 some level to making some kind of physical 3 inspection that will go to somebody, and perhaps 4 something will happen, but it's well short of, you 5 know, half a loaf. 6 And I'm grateful to you and the UFT 7 for, you know, coming forward in a very sort of, you 8 know, common language way, to you know -- thank you, 9 Chris. 10 MS. WEINGARTEN: It's when you have 11 great staff. 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Yes. 13 They seem to really need a roadmap, 14 and this is a very intelligent and common sense 15 roadmap that, you know, doesn't even call for sort 16 of like the ultimate, you know, nuclear option in 17 their position, which be to test every single piece 18 of caulk in every school to find out a piece of 19 caulk that's not 50 PPM but it's 51, and therefore, 20 you know, like the whole -- you know, we're not 21 calling for that. We're calling for something that 22 makes sense. And this certainly is that. But I think 23 these Committees and this Council and your union and 24 your good folks continuing to apply pressure to get 25 something to happen that's more in line with what we 182 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 know we need to see happen, this is how we'll 3 ultimately get them to get there. 4 So, your voice and the voice of all 5 of the members of the UFT, you've spoken loudly, 6 you've spoken plainly, you've spoken intelligently, 7 and I will do everything I can to advance this, you 8 know, common sense agenda, if the people from the 9 SCA and the Department of Ed will ever talk to me 10 again. So, we'll see. 11 MS. WEINGARTEN: Well, we -- 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: That was a joke, 13 the last part, you know, so I hope they will. 14 MS. WEINGARTEN: They will. 15 But look, we will also, as you know, 16 and as you have two chairs here, the Chair of the 17 Environmental Protection Committee and the Chair of 18 the Education Committee, and you just had the Chair 19 of the Investigations Committee, so you had three 20 chairs here. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: We're pulling 22 out all the stops today, yes. 23 MS. WEINGARTEN: All of you know, or 24 let me just make sure you know, that we have 25 actually trained, we have at least one health and 183 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 safety person in each of our borough offices. We 3 really actually have tried to decentralize our 4 staff, once the school system, you know, became 5 1,400 islands. We actually tried to decentralize our 6 staff to the boroughs, and we have at least one, 7 pretty much two, actually, in each borough office 8 now, where we've helped train our folks to 9 understand the protocol we think should happen, 10 calling for these kind of SWAT teams, but before 11 that, being able to do a visual inspection of caulk, 12 figuring out, you know, if the buildings were built, 13 if the windows were built before 1980, if it's built 14 between '40 and '80 we assume it has caulk, it has 15 PCBs in the caulk, and then we do a visual 16 inspection. 17 So, we will, kind of in the old 18 fashioned way that unions are supposed to work to 19 protect the interest of the educators, and more 20 importantly, the kids that are in the building, we 21 will do that kind of stuff, just like we did it with 22 PS 199, in Manhattan. 23 So, we'll keep on trying separate and 24 apart from the policy protocols that we're 25 suggesting. 184 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Well, thank you. 3 Thank you for making that contribution. 4 And I just want to ask about one of 5 the points that I thought needed to be spoken about 6 a little more, and I'm glad you did it, with the 7 first point. 8 It's Chris, right? 9 MS. PROCTOR: Yes. 10 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, fine. 11 About the implementation of more 12 stringent dust controls and improved clean-up and 13 housekeeping procedures when they're doing window 14 projects, I kind of got the sense from today's 15 hearing that when you talk about asbestos it's like 16 a whole thing, and everything is rigorous and figure 17 it out and we talk about lead, it's another thing, 18 but when you talk about PCB clean-ups or whatever, 19 it still appears to be kind of loose, it still 20 appears to be like a little haphazard, and that's 21 why I asked for the protocol that's set forth by the 22 State Education Department, you know, we want to 23 have our staff take a look at that, to see if that 24 kind of still makes sense. 25 Obviously, if you have it as your 185 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 number one item here, you have some level of concern 3 that the dust control on the monitoring and the 4 clean-up and the overall disturbance of 5 PCB-containing caulk, is a real concern, and every 6 time there is a window replacement, you have to kind 7 of hope that they do a real good job. But it seems 8 like it's not assured like you get with most lead 9 clean-ups or asbestos clean-ups; is that fair to 10 say? That's your sense? 11 MS. PROCTOR: Yes. We want to make 12 sure that at every job where there is a construction 13 renovation, window removal project, or construction 14 project, that there are rigorous dust controls. 15 When we found out at PS 199 that 16 parents, staff and even students were cleaning up 17 dust, that should have never been, and they did it 18 for a number of days, so we want to make sure that 19 that doesn't happen at other schools. It shouldn't 20 have happened at that school. And if dust does 21 happen, there has to be an immediate feedback 22 mechanism so that a report back so that the SCA can 23 do appropriate clean-up. 24 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I think that's, 25 you know, one of the hidden sort of stories this 186 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 year, it's just not about a school that has 3 crumbling, peeling caulking, it's about a school 4 that had crumbling, peeling caulking last year, but 5 then they, like, changed the windows, and, you know, 6 what kind of dust situation did they ultimately 7 create when they did that renovation. And, so, now 8 the school has all brand new caulking, but, you 9 know, like what is the legacy of the old caulk, and 10 like, what does that mean? 11 Yes, Randi? 12 MS. WEINGARTEN: Think about it this 13 way: The City, you know, there is a lot of people in 14 the City, maybe myself included, because I am an 15 asthmatic, and I developed asthma as an adult, but 16 one of the reasons that the Mayor pushed so hard for 17 PlaNYC was to try and alleviate child asthma. 18 You know, when you think about all 19 those trucks that go through the Bronx and whatnot, 20 dust, dust is probably number one, two, three and 21 four irritants, or causes, of respiratory illness, 22 including asthma. 23 So, the best thing we can do, whether 24 we're talking about asbestos, whether we're talking 25 about asthma, whether we're talking about PCBs, 187 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 whether we're talking about lead removal, or any of 3 a number of things where you see friable materials, 4 is to have a really good dust containment process. 5 It would solve many, many, many issues. 6 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: And what happens 7 now when they do window replacement? It's nothing 8 like these, you know, negative containment air 9 pressure kinds of things, it's just construction and 10 they try to minimize dust as best they can, but -- 11 MS. WEINGARTEN: When we do a 12 protocol, and, look, we've done this with former 13 administrations better than now, although I have to 14 say that since Deputy Chancellor Grimm and SCA Chair 15 Sharon Greenberger have gotten there, this is one of 16 those areas where they have really reached out to us 17 in a way that other administrators in the Klein 18 Administration has not. Now, I don't know that that 19 has now changed because, you know, of the budget war 20 that we're involved in, but I want to give them 21 credit for that. 22 Having said that, they have and are 23 supposed to do some dust protocol. 24 It is basically more in the breech 25 than done in reality. But they are supposed to do a 188 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 real dust clean up. Not with all the testing that is 3 required when you have an asbestos clean-up, or a 4 lead clean-up, but there's supposed to be a real 5 dust protocol with any modernization, renovation, 6 window replacement project. 7 MS. PROCTOR: And when people return 8 to their rooms it should be cleaner than when they 9 left. People should have to worry, whether it's 10 staff members, parents or students, about their 11 health. 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Here here. Thank 13 you. 14 MS. WEINGARTEN: Thank you. 15 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Robert. 16 Oh, I'm sorry, we can only take a 17 statement that's on the record from witnesses. More 18 than happy to have anyone who wishes to testify sign 19 up. 20 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Randi, good 21 afternoon. Let me just ask a couple of quick 22 questions. 23 With respects to, what were the 24 reaction of the teachers and other staff that you 25 represented at the schools in which the Department 189 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 of Education tested? 3 Can you speak into the mike, please? 4 MS. WEINGARTEN: I think we actually 5 made sure we got to all seven schools, either the 6 weekend before, the week before or the week after 7 the Daily News story came out, and, frankly, people 8 were, the people at 199 in Manhattan were really 9 angry, because they, as Chris had said, whether the 10 window job was botched, or whether the renovation 11 job was botched, this was a very overcrowded school, 12 a very high-performing school, there is actually two 13 schools there, and the parents, teachers and kids 14 were doing some of their clean-up of the dust, only 15 later to find out that there were detectable levels 16 of PCBs. So, it's not even PCBs in the caulk, there 17 were PCBs in the soil and in the dust, and people 18 were really pissed off. For good reason. 19 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Department of 20 Education officials, in response to questions that 21 were asked, indicated that the caulking in the 22 windows were never disturbed. In fact, they cut out 23 the entire window, surround the window, and took out 24 the entire window, and thus, so, the caulking was 25 never an issue, but they did not test any protocols 190 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 during the construction. They admitted to that. And 3 they said that they were not aware, not aware, that 4 parents and teachers were, for approximately ten 5 days after, cleaning up dust in the classrooms. They 6 said they were not aware of that. And I asked them, 7 how could you not be aware of that if that is going 8 on throughout the school, Assistant Principal, or a 9 Principal, there had to be aware that that was going 10 on. And in the testimony said that the protocol, 11 dust protocols were being followed during 12 construction. 13 So, maybe it was during construction, 14 but after construction, for ten days you had 15 teachers and parents cleaning up dust, and basically 16 their response was the State Education Department 17 came out with guidelines in June of 2007, and it 18 took them six months in order to, approximately in 19 January of 2008, in order to I guess either, to 20 implement those guidelines and thus it was not in 21 time for the PS 199 situation. 22 MS. WEINGARTEN: Chair Jackson, you 23 have seen what I have seen this year, which is there 24 is nobody in charge of the schools. And frankly, 25 this poor principal at 199 complained about, at 191 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 least when I met with her, because we took through 3 of the building -- 4 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 5 MS. WEINGARTEN: And I hope I am not 6 getting her in trouble, when I talk about what she 7 said to me in other frustration. She talked about 8 how they tried to get people to clean it up. They 9 didn't clean it up. And you have this amazing codery 10 and climate of collaboration and collegiality 11 between staff and parents. 12 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: So they did it 13 themselves. 14 MS. WEINGARTEN: They did it 15 themselves. 16 But part of this is rooted in this 17 new reorganization when the schools are islands, 18 they basically fend for themselves, and, so, you 19 have none -- 20 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 21 MS. WEINGARTEN: When we see a 22 problem, people are now responding, but, you know, 23 there is no climate of getting some support, either 24 facility-wise or instructionally or whatever, from, 25 you know, Tweed. 192 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: DOE indicated 3 that they were working collaboratively with the 4 unions and others. 5 So, my question is, I believe you 6 indicated in part of your opening statement that the 7 Department of Education had communicated with you 8 before the story hit, in letting you know what was 9 going on. 10 MS. WEINGARTEN: Actually it was the 11 reporter that communicated with us. 12 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Oh, the report. 13 Not initially the Department of Education? 14 MS. WEINGARTEN: No. And we actually 15 then communicated with the Department of Education 16 and also with the reporter about how to create a 17 situation to ensure safety in schools. 18 And, you know, I find this, maybe 19 since I've been personally skewered by the 20 Department of Education twice in the last month for 21 simply seeking to ensure the kids have a good 22 budget, and that deals that have been made are 23 honored. I find it quite amusing than when the 24 Department of Education is in trouble, they 25 constantly say, well, we're working with the CSA and 193 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 the UFT. 3 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 4 MS. WEINGARTEN: But then what happens 5 is that when they don't feel like they are the least 6 bit in trouble, then they do exactly what they want. 7 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 8 MS. WEINGARTEN: Now, we saw that this 9 was an issue. And as I said, I thought the reporter 10 from the Daily News showed tremendous responsibility 11 in terms of having test results and alerting parties 12 that have historically been involved in this, not 13 just the Board of Ed, that these were issues. 14 And, so, one of the things is that 15 when you hear that, if you are a responsible party 16 that actually believes like we do in the health and 17 safety of kids, parents and educators, you actually 18 want to try to work with other entities to make that 19 happen. 20 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And so you 21 reached out to the Department of Education. 22 MS. WEINGARTEN: Yes. 23 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And subsequent 24 to reaching out, have they been collaborating with 25 you as to any new developments, any protocols that 194 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 they put in place? Are they sharing with you any 3 letters and correspondence that they sent to parents 4 and others? 5 MS. WEINGARTEN: Until the big chill 6 happened in the last three weeks, they were. 7 But, you know, we have been fighting 8 them, as you know -- 9 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Right. 10 MS. WEINGARTEN: On keeping their 11 promises to children. 12 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Right. 13 MS. WEINGARTEN: And on the budget 14 fights. And so what I have seen in the last three 15 weeks, even though there is still, on serious health 16 and safety issues, still some coordination, and some 17 work together, I have seen a real big chill, that 18 what is happening is that they're essentially on war 19 footing with the union and our members. So, it's not 20 the same as it was even a month ago when there was, 21 you know, before the story hit, lots of work 22 together. 23 That's why I was really kind of 24 shocked that they wouldn't actually claim credit 25 where they deserved things, where they actually 195 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 tested things and they actually tried to clean 3 things up that weekend where there were bad test 4 results. 5 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: I think Kathleen 6 Grimm indicated in her testimony that in 7 conversations with UFT about creating special teams 8 to respond, just disturbed caulking and what have 9 you and so forth; has that been -- 10 MS. WEINGARTEN: Right. They have 11 agreed -- 12 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 13 MS. WEINGARTEN: Well, let me put it 14 this way, they agreed -- I don't know where they are 15 this week after the big chill, you know, but they 16 agreed a few weeks ago to create those SWAT teams. 17 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 18 MS. WEINGARTEN: And to do that kind 19 of -- they didn't agree fully to do the assessment. 20 MS. PROCTOR: We're working on that. 21 MS. WEINGARTEN: We're working on 22 trying to get them to do the assessment, but they 23 did agree to do those kind of SWAT teams. 24 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. Well, I 25 ask you to please keep us advised, as I indicated to 196 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 them, to ask them to please keep us advised of any 3 changes in protocol or any new developments and to 4 share information with us and obviously to be 5 transparent in this process and share with parents 6 and all other interested parties. And I ask you to 7 do the same. 8 MS. WEINGARTEN: It would be our 9 pleasure. 10 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Thank you. 11 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 12 Randi. Thank you, Chris. 13 MS. WEINGARTEN: Thank you. 14 MS. PROCTOR: Thank you. 15 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thanks for the 16 great contribution. Thank you for being here. 17 MS. PROCTOR: Thank you very much. 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: You bet. 19 We have an expert panel. Robert 20 Herrick; John Tharakan; Daniel Lefkowitz; George 21 Weymouth. 22 This is the parents panel? 23 MS. SWANSTON: The parents. 24 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, so as that 25 panel gets itself set, the panel right after this 197 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 will be a parents of panel. Patty Donegan, Anjali 3 Kochar, Kimberly Norton, will be the parents panel 4 right after this panel. 5 Okay, I'd like to thank everyone 6 remaining in the room for their patience. 7 There's a presentation to be made. 8 Part of the testimony is a presentation; is that 9 right? 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes. 11 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: All right. 12 Anyone who has got the biggest time 13 crunch should go first. And unfortunately, in order 14 to get everyone in who needs to speak, 15 unfortunately, we're going to have to ask people to 16 move it along as quickly as possible. I know this is 17 sort of a fundamental, sort of, you know, unfairness 18 built into that. I know that the people on this 19 panel have graciously traveled very, very long 20 distances and we're very grateful. 21 So, perhaps the best thing for me to 22 do is to stop talking and let the expert panel talk. 23 The Counsel to the Committee will 24 swear in this panel, and then we can commence. 25 MS. SWANSTON: Gentlemen, please raise 198 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 your right hands. 3 Do you swear or affirm to tell the 4 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth 5 today? 6 ALL COLLECTIVELY: Yes. 7 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. 8 (Witnesses sworn.) 9 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. 10 So, do we have written statements 11 from these witnesses? 12 MS. SWANSTON: Yes, we do. From Robert 13 Herrick. 14 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. 15 Who is going to go first? And you 16 have to state your name for the record. And when the 17 light is on, the microphone is on. 18 MR. HERRICK: Mr. Chair, there is two 19 of us that do have a little time crunch and we need 20 to get a train to Boston. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Fine. 22 MR. HERRICK: So, if we can go first. 23 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: You bet. You 24 bet. Sure. 25 MR. HERRICK: My name is Bob Herrick. 199 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 I'm on the faculty at Harvard School of Public 3 Health. 4 You have my statement there, and in 5 the interest of time, I won't go through all of the 6 history, and some of this other information on PCB 7 that you heard before. 8 But I would just like to make four 9 points, three of which refer to things that we know 10 for certain. 11 We know for certain that a very large 12 number of buildings, not just in New York, but in 13 the US and throughout the world, contain PCB in the 14 caulking. This has been demonstrated in a number of 15 European countries, there is ample scientific 16 evidence. There shouldn't be any debate on that 17 point anymore. 18 The second thing that we know for 19 sure is that that caulking is deteriorating, and 20 it's contaminating the interior of the buildings, 21 and the soil around the buildings, and that's been 22 amply published as well, both in the US, as well as 23 throughout Europe. 24 The third thing we know for sure is 25 the people who either live, work or go to school in 200 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 those buildings have elevated serum levels of PCB, 3 and it's caused by the caulking in those buildings. 4 And that's not in question either. That's well 5 documented in the peer reviewed literature. So those 6 are three things that we know for sure. 7 The fourth thing, that we don't know 8 for sure yet, is the issue that came up repeatedly 9 earlier today. We don't have a direct smoking gun to 10 point to some specific health effect that's 11 associated with the caulking exposure that comes 12 from those sources. But I would just say that, you 13 know, for people like me who try to keep track of 14 the scientific literature, there is hardly a week 15 that goes by when there isn't another study 16 published that adds to the accumulating body of 17 evidence that shows that there are a wide range of 18 toxic effects associated with PCBs, not the least of 19 which are the developmental toxicities. The evidence 20 is just increasing practically on a weekly basis, 21 the PCBs are very potent developmental toxins. 22 So, when we take a look at who the 23 populations really at risk are, and think about how 24 we ought to be prioritizing our resources, in terms 25 of who needs the greatest protection, I think the 201 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 decision ought to be pretty clear. And I would take 3 issue with the comment that people made earlier here 4 today. I think I wrote it down pretty accurately, 5 that no health risk associated with these 6 nondetectable levels was found in the schools. 7 I think that's a statement that 8 largely ignores the scientific uncertainty that is 9 associated with the emerging evidence about the 10 toxicity of PCBs. And that's all I would add to the 11 comments. 12 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. Thank 13 you for that affirmation, because that's certainly 14 our position. 15 That's your testimony? 16 MR. HERRICK: That's it. You've got 17 the rest in writing. I'd like these other people to 18 have some time. 19 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: You are a great 20 American. And thank you. And your colleague, who is 21 going to go next? 22 MR. WEYMOUTH: Yes, my name is George 23 Weymouth. 24 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Right. 25 MR. WEYMOUTH: And I'm probably the 202 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 most unpolished person in the room. I'm a 3 construction worker. I'm retired, from the 4 Bricklayers International. I placed this material in 5 1968. I put 50,000 feet of it in the John Hancock 6 building in Boston. In 1990, that 50,000 feet was 7 removed, without any kind of theory, we just had to 8 replace all of these windows. All that material was 9 thrown in a dumpster and thrown into an ordinary 10 dump. 11 After finding out this problem, I've 12 worked with Doc Herrick in my last two years in the 13 construction, when we were working on a system, a 14 dust system, because of silica in the workplace, and 15 we passed some legislation that required masks for 16 the union people, et cetera. That same device will 17 work very well in the clean-up of PCBs. 18 In so doing, when we cut out 19 caulking, we had to replace this particular 20 material. We cut out the caulking in the masonry 21 joints to get off all the residue that was left in 22 the polysulfide. We had to do that in order for the 23 new material to adhere. 24 Those two materials are like oil and 25 water, they just don't bond. So, we had to make a 203 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 virgin surface from the old material and then put 3 the new material on to ensure a waterproofed 4 integrity of the building. 5 This material I brought home on my 6 clothes. I was breathing -- I mean, this is raw 7 material, I mixed it on the job. I brought it home 8 on my clothes. My children hugged me at the door. 9 They got it all over them, it was, oh, daddy, I'm 10 sticky, you know? We never knew. There was no MSDS 11 sheets at the time. 12 And like I say, when Doc Herrick 13 came, he's younger than me but he's my mentor, in 14 fact, when we worked on this dust control system, we 15 felt real good about it, because silica is 16 definitely a carcinogen. 17 Again, he called me in after I was 18 retired to look at this issue on what's called the 19 Helsinki Report, I don't know if you've ever seen 20 it, but it relates to the problems that have been 21 spoken about all day. And when I read it and saw 22 polysulfide, it just rang a bell. 23 I went to my old crew, I went to a 24 big building that they were working on in Boston, I 25 grabbed a couple of the samples of the caulking, 204 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 they said there was trace amounts of asbestos found 3 in the caulking. I got it. I had it analyzed, it 4 came out zero asbestos and 28,400 parts per million 5 of PCBs. 6 So, this is what started the whole 7 thing. 8 Back to the School of Public Health, 9 tried to get the union involved. There was a little 10 problem there, which is another story that would 11 take hours, but that's pretty much it. That's where 12 I stand. I don't represent the union, but I'm part 13 of it. 14 To answer a couple of your questions, 15 if you want to find out where the material was put 16 in this City, ask the guys who put it in. It's a 17 phone call away. Because it's a big democratic 18 system, big baseball town, call the construction 19 workers. They'll tell you where to go. 20 As far as getting it out of the 21 schools, do so. It's bad stuff. 22 If it goes on fire, it causes a 23 dioxin gas which is 100 times more unhealthy than 24 the raw material itself. It does emulsify. You can't 25 tell from the outside, the caulking, the peeling, 205 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 the chipping. It's the inside that's the problem. It 3 emulsifies. It turns back to mush. That's how you 4 get the asbestos, the trace amounts of asbestos 5 found in caulking. When it cracks or separates, 6 either adhesive failure or cohesive failure, and 7 they put the air conditioning or heating on and the 8 air circulates around these open or closed chambers 9 within the buildings and blows out those cracks. If 10 it picks up the slightest amount of dust i.e., or 11 asbestos, it clings to that, and that's how you get 12 that trace amounts of asbestos. 13 This stuff has been being removed 14 throughout the country by my colleagues, with no 15 protection whatsoever. Calling it asbestos waste. 16 And it's being treated as such and shouldn't be. 17 It's very detrimental to water. It's 18 not water soluble, and it must be either 19 encapsulated somehow, in a bulk form, or 20 incinerator, very high degrees. A very specific way 21 of getting rid of PCBs. We made it, but it's 22 impossible for nature to get rid of it. It's 23 something that has to be done by us. 24 My children, nepotism runs crazy in 25 my industry. I have two boys that are physically 206 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 doing this now. I put this material in for ten 3 years, before the 1977 Toxic Control Act. And that, 4 by the way, definitely mentioned PCBs, cradle to 5 grave legislation. It never happened. The only thing 6 that really took effect was lights in classrooms, 7 get all of the transformers out of the classrooms. 8 This has really, little pun intended, slipped 9 through the cracks. 10 But now it's up to us. I don't want 11 to leave it to my kids and my grandchildren, and I 12 have an affected school in my town and they don't 13 want nothing to do with it, nothing. Because there 14 is no legislation, no governing body. 15 I thank you for your time. And this 16 is all on our own, by the way, there is no standing 17 behind us. 18 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: No, thank you. 19 Thank you, Mr. Weymouth? Is that right, Weymouth? 20 MR. WEYMOUTH: That's correct, yes. 21 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: You know, it's a 22 real service on your part to come all the way here 23 and to try to inspire good action in New York City. 24 MR. WEYMOUTH: It's my pleasure. 25 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: We're pushing 207 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 pretty hard and we have, fortunately -- who is here 3 from the Administration? We've got Ross who is still 4 here, right? Thank you, Ross, for staying. 5 And who else is here from the 6 Administration? Folks are still here from the 7 Administration. Thank you for staying to get the 8 benefit of this good testimony. 9 Thank you. 10 MR. WEYMOUTH: There's a lot of folks 11 out there who can help you, really. And they're just 12 a phone call away. 13 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: We certainly 14 appreciate you willing to come here and give us the 15 benefit of your good views. 16 It's very, very compelling testimony, 17 perhaps the most we've heard so far today. 18 MR. WEYMOUTH: Thank you, sir. 19 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. You 20 bet. 21 Okay, Dr. Tharakan. 22 DR. THARAKAN: Tharakan. John 23 Tharakan. 24 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Where is the 25 slip? Oh, I think if fell. Okay. 208 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Doctor, thank you for being here. I 3 see you have a scientific paper. Yes, if you could 4 just give us, just a very condensed summary of your 5 major points, we'd be very grateful to hear that. 6 DR. THARAKAN: Okay, thank you. 7 Well, first of all, thank you for 8 inviting me to come up here and present for the 9 Council. 10 I'm a Professor of Engineering at 11 Howard University, and I have been working since 12 1994 on doing research on alternative ways to 13 remediate and clean up PCB contaminated soils. 14 As I don't want to echo, rather I 15 would echo everything that my colleagues on this 16 panel have said, in terms of the detriment and the 17 hazards of PCBs, I just want to add a few points. 18 PCB remediation is a really big 19 problem. Just because of the wonderful qualities of 20 PCBs in terms of their industrial uses, they also, 21 that contributes to the difficulty in cleaning them 22 up. So, the only real approved ways of cleaning up 23 PCBs so far are two methods: either burying them in 24 a hazardous waste landfill where they're completely 25 and away from the environment and incinerating them 209 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 in an approved incinerator and there are very few of 3 those improved incinerators around because 4 incineration actually leads to bigger problems if 5 not done right, which is the production of dioxins, 6 other carcinogenic compounds. 7 What I've been investigating is the 8 use of biological technologies, including microbes, 9 earthworms, and other kinds of biological agents in 10 trying to clean these PCBs up, and that is in trying 11 to transform them to non-hazardous compounds. We 12 have had some success, as some of those papers have 13 shown. I don't want to really go over all of that. 14 But our success is being rather limited because of 15 the very nature, the chemical nature and the 16 chemical structure of the chemicals themselves. 17 So, although our results and our 18 research have had some success, and has demonstrated 19 potential for actually cleaning up PCBs, which means 20 converting the PCBs to a harmless compound, as 21 opposed to the disposal which is just containing 22 them and putting them in a secure location, there 23 still needs a lot more work to be done in order to 24 actually implement the kinds of technologies that we 25 are developing. 210 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 I just want to add a couple of things 3 in response to what I've heard, since I've been 4 sitting here. I would echo what the professor from 5 public health has said, that PCBs are a really 6 serious problem. The testimony I heard from, I'm not 7 sure which panel it was, whether it was the school 8 board or the Education Department, that they do not 9 pose a real risk is, I think, really misleading. 10 As some of the evidence that was 11 pointed to here in terms of the air sampling where 12 now a filter comes back as a potentially hazardous 13 waste for disposal, I think clearly points to the 14 nature and the degree of the problem, and I think 15 you also have to understand that PCBs can be a 16 localized kind of issue, you could be in a room 17 where, as you so very well said, flaking, peeling 18 and friable caulking, somebody might be in the room 19 not really breathing high levels of PCBs, but if 20 somebody were to be by the window, especially a 21 small child and happen to put a tiny little piece of 22 window caulking in their mouths, they would 23 certainly get more PCB exposure than a whole lot of 24 hamburgers that you would find on the regular 25 market. 211 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 So, there are a lot of unknowns, 3 uncertainties, and I think when they are thinking 4 about protecting the health of our kids, we really 5 have to apply the precaution principle and be 6 cautious in our approach and take all the relevant 7 precautions that we can. 8 So, thank you. 9 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, 10 Doctor. Thank you not only for being here today and 11 giving us the benefit of your views, but really 12 contributing to providing a lot of scholarship on 13 this issue, and use of sort of biomethods to try to 14 remediate this is something that I'm sure will bear 15 a lot of fruit for years to come. So you're to be 16 commended for that, and we're grateful to have you 17 among us here today, and thank you for your patience 18 in coming forward. 19 Council Member Brewer has questions 20 to ask. 21 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Because of 22 your expertise, do you know of any other localities 23 that are looking at this more intensely than New 24 York is? 25 DR. THARAKAN: Actually, when the 212 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Committee Counsel, Ms. Swanston, sent me the 3 articles about PCBs in caulking, despite the fact 4 that I had been looking at PCB remediation research 5 for over ten years now, that was the first I had 6 heard about PCBs in caulking. 7 I then went and did more exploration 8 and of course, PCBs were used in caulking, and they 9 were used in caulking everywhere. So, as my 10 colleague, the construction worker said, probably 11 every building in this country that was built 12 between, before 1980, or renovated before maybe 13 1975, has window caulking that has PCBs in it. 14 Now, there are approaches to dealing 15 with this and the people from UFT, the sort of 16 protocol that they laid out in terms of assessment, 17 in terms of containment and then following up with 18 clean-up removal and clean-up if necessary I think 19 is the right kind of approach, it's the common sense 20 kind of approach to take care of an issue that is a 21 real problem. 22 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. And do 23 you think there should be more protocols from the 24 federal government also? 25 DR. THARAKAN: I think there 213 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 absolutely should. These things need to be developed 3 because there are standard ways that things are 4 done. And if those are developed based on research 5 and assessment of the potential hazards and so on, 6 then they can be applied uniformly and they can be 7 applied everywhere they need to be done. 8 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Thank you. 9 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Thank you, 10 Doctor. We appreciate your testimony. Thank you. 11 The next panel is Patty Donegan. She 12 is here on behalf of her son. 13 Anjali Kochar, she is representing 14 herself at PS 153. 15 Kimberly Norton, PS 199; and Veronica 16 Vanterpool, for Tristate Transportation Campaign. 17 Please come forward. 18 Come on up, have a seat. 19 Patty, you can begin. 20 MS. DONEGAN: I'm grateful for the 21 people that are still here. 22 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay, pull the 23 mike up to you, please. Introduce yourself. 24 MS. DONEGAN: My name is Patty 25 Donegan. My son is a fourth grader in PS 53 in 214 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Staten Island. 3 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: PS 53 in Staten 4 Island. 5 Okay, you may begin your testimony. 6 MS. DONEGAN: I am the mom who took 7 home his air purifier from the classroom to clean it 8 and ironically saw the news report in the Daily News 9 and decided to do a little research and contact a 10 few people and figure out if perhaps that's what's 11 making my child sick in the classroom. 12 He is an asthmatic but he got to the 13 level where he had uncontrolled asthma, severe 14 asthma last January into February in school. This 15 coincided with a window job replacement that was 16 being done from the fall of '06 through to the 17 spring of '07. I felt that maybe some dust was what 18 was triggering him and irritating him. I was aware 19 it was a construction site at night and a classroom 20 during the day. What I wasn't aware of until this 21 week or two weeks ago is that it could have been a 22 hazardous construction site at night, and a 23 classroom during the day. 24 Because he was so sick and down at 25 the nurse three times a day for nebulizers, and not 215 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 breathing and getting calls and needing to pick him 3 up and can't breathe and back and forth and sick and 4 for medications and steroids, at some point as a 5 parent you need to realize what can I do for my 6 child to make him feel better. And I was able to 7 isolate the school environment as the trigger for 8 the severe asthma. He is not sick like that at home 9 or anywhere else. 10 He plays football, basketball, 11 baseball, all organized sports. He runs faster than 12 anyone on his team basically. He is an extremely 13 athletic, powerful, happy little boy. He never stops 14 moving or playing. The only place he seems not to be 15 able to breathe is within the confine of his school 16 and his classroom, within that box on Doorend Avenue 17 (phonetic). 18 The administration in the school, the 19 vice principal, principal, allowed me to put an air 20 filter so I could perhaps just clean the dust or the 21 trigger or the pollen. I don't know, whatever was in 22 there that was irritating him. 23 You know, I kept saying, I don't 24 think something is right here. Even a year ago I 25 called the principal to find out what were they 216 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 stirring up at night or what paint could they have 3 been using that was irritating him, and I was told 4 what she was told, which is what the School 5 Construction Authority tells everyone, the air is 6 fine, it's legal, it's safe to open, they would 7 never jeopardize anyone. What nobody knows until the 8 last few weeks is that they don't check it for PCBs 9 and even today they don't check it for PCBs. 10 Any school being worked on this 11 morning was told the air was fine. A year later, he 12 is still sick within that classroom. I put the air 13 purifier in to help him breathe. The teachers had, 14 in January, the teachers had vacuumed it out with a 15 Dustbuster within the classroom several times. I 16 took it home on March 31st to look at it myself, and 17 perhaps check it for a dander or a dust or whatever, 18 saw the article, mailed it out to a lab and I think 19 the results of it are shocking. 20 I am not surprised that their testing 21 is not showing anything. I don't know what 90 22 minutes or whatever testing they do on air. I don't 23 know. I'm no expert, I'm no scientist, I'm a mom. 24 But I think that my filter may be representative of 25 the compounded consistent exposure that my child's 217 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 lungs take in thousands of breathes every week 3 within that school for 180 days a year, for at least 4 five years he's been there now and at least a year 5 since construction, and another year within that 6 building. 7 So, I am concerned of who is going to 8 get a test together that, in fact, may actually 9 represent the exposure to our children. 10 I know my child is already sick with 11 asthma from it. And I don't what the long-term 12 affect is for him, or any children there, or any 13 adult. And I'm concerned and I'm scared and I feel 14 sick over the fact that my filter showed that. 15 I don't know if any of the experts 16 that left and the people, and the Board of Ed, I 17 don't know, knowing what my thing showed. The fact 18 is my little purifier that I bought in Cosco did a 19 really good job of cleaning the air in that room for 20 them. It cleaned 994 parts per million, when they 21 talk about 50 or whatever, over a period of three 22 months where he turned it on in the morning and shut 23 it off before he left at night, and still suffered 24 terribly within that classroom. 25 I don't know if any of them would 218 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 like to breathe the air that my child breathes, or 3 any of their children, and all of this supposing and 4 could it be and would it be, and uncommittal scares 5 me, and it scares my faith in the system. 6 I feel like my little household 7 residential purifier cleans a classroom of PCB dust 8 left over from windows or another source, I don't 9 even know anymore, when the EPA, the Department of 10 Health, the School Construction Authority and the 11 Department of Ed either can't clean it, doesn't 12 clean it or won't clean it. 13 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: To be continued. 14 We'll follow-up on that, okay? 15 Next, Anjali Kochar. She is 16 representing herself at PS 153 in the Bronx. 17 MS. KOCHAR: Sorry. A little baby 18 passing. 19 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Don't be sorry. 20 There is nothing to be sorry about. That's our 21 future there. 22 MS. KOCHAR: Thanks. 23 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Go ahead. 24 MS. KOCHAR: Good afternoon, City 25 Council members, officials of New York City 219 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 government and concerned parents and the three kids 3 that we have in here. 4 I want to just start off by saying 5 that one of the reasons that I brought both of my 6 daughters, but especially Karen, is because I wanted 7 you all to see the face of somebody who goes to a 8 school that has tested positive for PCBs in dust. 9 Karen is a student. She is a first grader at PS 153 10 in Co-Op City in the Bronx, so... 11 My name is Anjali Kochar. I come 12 before you this afternoon as a product of the New 13 York City Public Schools District 11 in the Bronx, 14 and as a parent of a first grader at PS 153. 15 I am by nature not an alarmist, but I 16 am here today to express my concern about the 17 possibility of PCBs in our schools, not only in the 18 Bronx, but throughout New York City and potentially 19 nationally. 20 I am not an expert on environmental 21 issues, nor do I claim to have all the facts. But 22 here is what I do know, most of which will not be 23 new information to Council members and those sitting 24 in the audience. 25 One, PCBs are highly toxic. PCBs 220 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 travel easily and don't break down easily. To date, 3 PCB contaminated caulking has been found in building 4 construction in the Northeastern United States, and 5 in water storage basins in the west. This is 6 directly off of the Environmental Protection 7 Agency's website. 8 Because PCBs travel and don't break 9 down easily, they can be found everywhere in our 10 environment and in the foods that we eat. New York 11 City public schools have had detectable levels of 12 PCBs above the federal level of 10 micrograms, found 13 in air, dust, and soil samples. 14 A couple of weeks ago, Dr. Graber, 15 who actually was in the audience at the beginning, 16 of the Department of Health, came to PS 153 to put 17 the PCB level detected there into context. 18 And one example that he gave was that 19 a buttered English Muffin contained nine micrograms 20 of PCBs, and thus the detected 11.7 which is above 21 the federal limit of 10 micrograms in classroom 179, 22 was not that much more than what was found naturally 23 in our environment. 24 I cannot dispute this, however, this 25 does not mean that we should not be concerned, or 221 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 that we must accept the occurrence of PCBs in an 3 environment in which our children spend at least six 4 and a half hours a day, if not more. 5 I understand that our school has been 6 completely cleaned, and that further testing of the 7 air and dust showed nondetectable or lower levels of 8 PCBs. 9 However, we all know that children 10 touch any and everything. Fingers go in the mouth. 11 There is no stopping that. Imagine a child touching 12 the dust that contained PCB levels at 11.7 13 micrograms, not only once but maybe repeatedly. It's 14 really not that much a stretch of the imagination. 15 Imagine a child who lives in an apartment or home 16 built between 1960 and the late seventies who eats 17 that buttered English Muffin, or a hamburger or fish 18 sticks and then goes to a school where she or he is 19 exposed to either dust, air or soil that is 20 contaminated with PCBs, no matter how low the level. 21 This child is being hit three times with PCB levels 22 either below or above the federal level. 23 One more thing. That buttered English 24 Muffin may contain PCBs, whereas we know the caulk 25 at 153 and at other schools is deteriorating and 222 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 that PCBs are traveling, and have now been found in 3 the air, PS 199 in Manhattan, in the soil PS 181 in 4 the Bronx, and in the dust, PS 153. 5 The question before us is not are 6 PCBs dangerous to the health of the most vulnerable, 7 our children. We all know the answer to that 8 question. The question we must ask is, now that PCBs 9 have been detected in our children's environment, 10 how do we contain the PCBs and ensure our children's 11 exposure to them will not be an acceptable cost to 12 children going to school in New York City or 13 nationally. 14 I am not here to place blame on 15 anyone, any branch of government, or any 16 institution. I am here to find a way forward, to 17 partner with all of the agencies involved, the 18 Mayor, the City Council, to put into place and 19 implement next steps, new protocols that are then 20 widely dispersed among the student body. 21 Representative Crowley and 22 representative Serrano, will be introducing 23 legislation in the US Congress that will fund the 24 clean-up and removal of PCB-contaminated caulking in 25 schools throughout the country. 223 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 New York City must take the lead and 3 set the example by moving forward within the testing 4 of caulking with all of its schools built between 5 1960 and 1977, and caulking that has PCB levels 6 above the federal standard of 50 parts per million 7 must be removed. 8 The health and future of our City and 9 the world depends on the actions of concerned 10 citizens coming together to solve problems like 11 this, putting aside politics and basing decisions 12 made on facts, or in this case, current federal 13 standards. 14 It is up to all of us to safeguard 15 the future of our children, regardless of where they 16 live, whether it be in your home, across the street 17 or in another city, state or country. 18 Thank you. I'm sorry to have gone 19 over. 20 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. 21 Thank you very much. 22 Next witness, Veronica Vanterpool; is 23 that right? Am I saying that right? 24 MS. VANTERPOOL: Hi. Thank you very 25 much for the opportunity to speak today. I, too, am 224 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 a parent at PS 153, along with Anjali. And there's 3 just a few points that -- 4 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: I just need you 5 to state your name for the record. 6 MS. VANTERPOOL: Oh, I'm sorry. 7 Veronica Vanterpool. 8 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay. 9 MS. VANTERPOOL: And there's just a 10 few points that I'd like to make today. 11 I just want to make a connection that 12 PCBs are what's present right now in our Hudson 13 River, and the US EPA designated 200 miles of our 14 river as a Superfund site. Just to kind of put it in 15 context yet again, that PCBs are indeed a very 16 pervasive, persistent and toxic chemical. 17 I'd also like to talk about, today we 18 talked about how prevalent PCBs are in our food. It 19 was brought up quite a bit throughout the hours that 20 we've been here. But we're talking about our 21 exposure being compounded. So, there are ways that 22 we cannot control our exposure to PCBs, but there 23 are ways that we can. And we don't expect our 24 children to be exposed in their indoor school 25 environment, and compounded by the fact that they're 225 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 exposed to PCBs in ways that we, as parents, cannot 3 control and regulatory agencies cannot control. 4 So, I just want to keep that in mind, 5 even put that out there, that just because it may be 6 present in our food does not mean that it's okay 7 that it's present in our indoor air quality. That's 8 something that we can control, and should be 9 controlled. 10 I also would like to point out, there 11 was a lot of discussion about the cleaning 12 procedures today, and there is no clear protocol, 13 and I know that because none of those mitigation 14 measures that were identified by Commissioner 15 Frieden in his letter that was referenced by the 16 Department earlier were ever mentioned here today. 17 And in fact, I know as a parent none of those 18 measures are employed in our children's school. 19 Commissioner Frieden has some clear 20 outlines. He says, use a wet or dump cloth or a mop 21 to clean surfaces. That is not regularly done in our 22 schools. 23 Do not use a dry broom to sweep. Do 24 not use a duster. And the same night that we're at 25 the school with these representatives a janitor is 226 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 pushing a duster by. 3 So, the same day they're there to 4 talk about this protocol for cleaning and it hasn't 5 even yet been implemented. 6 Wash children's hands with soap and 7 water, especially before eating. That is not 8 encouraged. Nor is it enforced. 9 I know for a fact my son does not 10 wash his hands before eating. These are measures. 11 Guidelines for minimizing exposure to PCBs and dust 12 that were issued by the Commissioner. 13 None of these measures were told to 14 us today, or to any of you to ask these questions of 15 the Department. 16 I'd also like to bring up that I 17 can't help but feel that there is imbedded racism, 18 environmental racism on this issue, and I'll explain 19 why. 20 In the audience was Dr. Nathan 21 Grayber, who has since left. He is with the 22 Department of Health. He was the doctor that was at 23 our school at PS 153 a few weeks back and Anjali 24 mentioned him in her testimony. 25 Coincidentally, Dr. Grayber was at 227 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 our school telling us what we've heard throughout 3 the hours today, that there is minimal exposure 4 because it's not detected in the air. 5 Coincidentally, Dr. Grayber was a 6 signatory to a letter when he was employed with the 7 Pediatric Unit Specialty at Mount Sinai Hospital to 8 Dr. Daniel Lefkowitz indicating to Dr. Daniel 9 Lefkowitz, and I quote, in general, children are 10 exquisitely vulnerable to environmental toxins, they 11 have normal hand-to-mouth behaviors that increase 12 ingestion of soil and dust with potential 13 contaminants. 14 We'll go on and on. PCBs in the 15 French Hill Elementary School, which is in Yorktown 16 Heights, a very affluent community in Westchester 17 County that is predominantly white, can represent a 18 risk for the students to spend from 35 to 50 hours 19 per week. Decreasing exposure will help protect the 20 children from potential health affects now and in 21 the future. 22 Removing window caulking known to 23 contain PCBs in the school will remove the source. 24 Then the letter concludes by 25 congratulating the doctor and the school for being 228 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 proactive for minimizing the exposure to the 3 children because it is so toxic. 4 And this same Dr. Nathan Grayber was 5 at my school, PS 153, telling us we need not worry 6 because it was not present in the air. 7 When I hear that, and I sat here for 8 hours to hear this testimony all day long, I cannot 9 -- I'm incensed. And I appreciate the very thorough 10 questions that many of you ask and put these 11 representatives on the spot to have them on the 12 record, flounder around these issues, because they 13 are really sidestepping the main issues. 14 Thank you. 15 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you. Thank 16 you very much for your compelling testimony, for 17 bearing witness in a very special way to this. 18 MS. VANTERPOOL: Thank you. 19 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: And we really 20 appreciate your patience. 21 Next panel, right? Oh, forgive me, 22 I'm sorry. 23 MS. SWANSTON: Kimberly Norton. I 24 invited her. 25 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Okay, yes. 229 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Please. 3 MS. NORTON: Hi. Good afternoon. My 4 name is Kimberly Norton. I'd like to thank you for 5 holding these hearings today, because we have been 6 working really hard, our PTA, and our construction 7 committee at PS 199, to try to get to the bottom of 8 what's going on in our school. So, thank you to 9 everyone, and Councilman Brewer as well. 10 Okay, so, I am a parent at PS 199. 11 This is my son, Jackson. He is in third grade. We're 12 in the Upper West Side of Manhattan. I'm also a Vice 13 President of the PTA and a co-chair of the PS 199 14 Construction Committee. This is a Committee that was 15 formed two years ago in response to a large scale 16 SCA asbestos abatement project on our school's roof. 17 We worked to ensure that all asbestos abatement 18 protocols were closely followed and to ensure our 19 children's safety during this process. 20 I speak to you today about another 21 project that was recently done at PS 199 that our 22 parent-led Construction Committee attempted to 23 monitor, a complete removal of our school's windows 24 that was completed in March of this year. 25 Unbeknownst to our Committee and our 230 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 School Community, the window caulking in the 3 recently removed windows contained PCBs. We only 4 learned this thanks to a Daily News report that came 5 out after our window project was completed. 6 There is something grossly wrong with 7 the fact that we found this out from the press, 8 rather than the DOE, that we thought this was simply 9 a dusty project, but it wasn't. It was a project 10 with PC latent dust that our children, staff and the 11 school environment were exposed to for several weeks 12 and months. 13 What if the Daily News had never 14 written this article? Would our schools still be in 15 the dark and not know about the PCBs lingering in 16 our cafeteria, hallways and classrooms? 17 Why was this hidden from our school? 18 And it's a question that I pose to the entire City 19 and I'm going to talk about how we need an 20 investigation because our school is the test case. 21 And everyone here has said, oh, you guys were the 22 Guinea Pigs, okay? We didn't know, we didn't know, 23 we didn't know. Well, guess what? Our kids our 24 suffering and we do not deserve this kind of 25 treatment from the City, and it is completely 231 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 enraging that we have to go through this and our 3 children, and we, as parents, and the PTA, has to 4 pay for the remedy, and I'm going to talk a little 5 bit about that. 6 I want to talk about the time line 7 just so that you get a sense of what has gone on. 8 In July of 2007 we had parents at the 9 kick-off meeting for the UFT, the SCA, there was a 10 UFT protocol checklist that I have a copy of where 11 there is no mention of PCBs. 12 The meeting was attended by three SCA 13 members, one of whom was an industrial hygienist. 14 And we were recently told in late 15 March that the DOE assumed that there was PCBs in 16 the window caulking, given that our school was built 17 in 1963. 18 In October of 2007, parents from our 19 committee asked if the window caulking had been 20 tested. We were told, yes, and that the caulking was 21 non-toxic. 22 I personally wrote an e-mail to the 23 parents saying the windows will be done, and they're 24 non-toxic. Well, evidently, that wasn't true, 25 because toxic is toxic. 232 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 In February and March of 2008, the 3 window replacement began. And earlier I heard 4 someone from the SCA say that the New York State 5 protocol wasn't enforceable until January of '08. 6 Our school window project did not 7 begin until January 28th. So, clearly our school 8 should have been mandated by New York State 9 Education protocols to be under that protocol. 10 So, for them to give an excuse that 11 the protocols came out in July of '07, well, our 12 school was done in the time six months after that 13 that they could have used that protocol in our 14 school. 15 After reviewing protocols forwarded 16 to us yesterday by the DOE, which we waited about 23 17 days to get, clearly there was a breakdown in any 18 alleged protocols followed. Dust was everywhere for 19 several weeks and months. Cleaning was clearly 20 inadequate. We have a parent to has done a teacher 21 survey that we're waiting for the results of, and 22 we've mostly gotten hits under the word 23 "inadequate." 24 We have several parents who witnessed 25 the gym windows being kicked out of the second 233 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 floor, come crashing to the ground one after 3 another, a clear breach in alleged protocol, 4 directly contradicting DOE's statements to our 5 community that the windows were carefully cut out of 6 the mortar and gingerly carried out of the building 7 to a designated site. 8 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: You're telling 9 me that parents saw the people that were removing 10 these windows kick the windows out of the second 11 floor? 12 MS. NORTON: That's correct. We have 13 three parents that, I have a letter from one of them 14 and I have two that are willing to talk about this. 15 Exactly. 16 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And you're 17 telling us, I mean this is just outrageous to hear 18 this. 19 MS. NORTON: Yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And quite 21 frankly, I believe you. Not that I disbelieve you, 22 but we've heard testimony from the Department of 23 Education from Sharon Greenberger that the windows 24 were cut out of their basically encasement, I guess 25 the cement or concrete, or whatever -- 234 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MS. NORTON: Yes. 3 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And removed that 4 way, and thus the caulking was not disturbed. And 5 you're telling me that parents saw the construction 6 people kicking windows out where we're crashing to 7 the ground. 8 MS. NORTON: That's correct. 9 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And you also 10 indicate in your testimony that the construction or 11 the work they were doing started on January 28th. 12 MS. NORTON: That's correct. I'm 13 positive. Because I wrote the e-mail to the parent 14 population. 15 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Do you have that 16 e-mail? Can you give us copies of that? 17 MS. NORTON: Yes. I can give the 18 schedule from the custodian of when she notified all 19 the teachers that the windows were starting to be 20 removed. 21 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Either Sharon 22 Greenberger and DOE is lying to us, and I don't 23 believe that they are, or somebody is feeding them 24 bad information, and whoever is feeding them that 25 bad information needs to be -- action needs to be 235 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 taken. 3 MS. NORTON: I totally agree with you. 4 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Because they are 5 telling us something totally different. 6 And where is Eric? Eric, under the 7 Investigation, if we have to interview parents, and 8 get affidavits to the fact that windows were kicked 9 out -- now, obviously, if windows were being kicked 10 out, was this during the school day? 11 MS. NORTON: This was during school 12 vacation. 13 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Oh, vacation. 14 MS. NORTON: There was three parents 15 that were on the playground along with other parents 16 and they heard the crashing sound and they went to 17 investigate and they saw the windows crashing to the 18 ground. 19 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 20 MS. NORTON: And just to let you know 21 a footnote, the soil is contaminated underneath the 22 area where those windows were crashing to the 23 ground. So, it's no mystery why the soil -- 24 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: How do you know 25 that? 236 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MS. NORTON: Because the east side of 3 the school came up for a positive hit for PCB 4 contamination. 5 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And that's where 6 they were kicking out the windows? 7 MS. NORTON: They were kicking out the 8 windows on the east side of the school. 9 The cafeteria, which is below the 10 gym, came up with a positive hit for air test. It 11 may be related to that as well. 12 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. Well, I'm 13 sorry to interrupt. I just had to -- 14 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Robert, I just 15 want to tell you, and I think you know this, at one 16 meeting, whatever one we've been at -- 17 MS. NORTON: Right. 18 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: SCA said that 19 -- they only said one window, but they did say one 20 window was kicked out, and now we're finding out 21 there were others. But just -- 22 MS. NORTON: No, they said, every 23 three to five minutes I have a report that a window 24 was crashing onto the ground, with a loud sound. 25 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Well, I just 237 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 want to say at previous meetings they mentioned one. 3 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Now, you have 4 DOE officials taking notes. You know what I'm 5 asking, right? 6 MS. NORTON: This was brought up at a 7 community meeting that the DOE was present at, and I 8 think, is it Mr. Holden? You were at that meeting, 9 a parent got up and testified about the windows 10 crashing to the ground. 11 So, the DOE knows about this 12 testimony. 13 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Well, Jim and 14 the attorney and staff, let's find out who the 15 contractor was. 16 MS. NORTON: I know the contractor. 17 It's Whitestone Contracting, and that's what I want 18 to get to -- 19 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Whitestone? 20 MS. NORTON:-- As part of my 21 testimony. It was Whitestone Contracting. 22 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay, then let 23 me just stop asking questions, but I'm glad you're 24 going to bring it out. Because, clearly, in my 25 opinion, that contractor should be fired. 238 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 MS. NORTON: I totally agree with you. 3 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Fired and not 4 hired for any more jobs because they exposed parents 5 and others to toxins that are harmful to the 6 environment and to children and they did not follow 7 appropriate protocol. 8 MS. NORTON: Yes, we've gotten reports 9 that the DOE doesn't want to fire the contractor 10 because they only got one complaint for dust, and 11 the contractor has worked well for them in the past. 12 That's what we were told by public officials in our 13 district who met with -- 14 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: I will be asking 15 Eric Gioia, or the Chairman of the Investigations 16 and Oversight Committee to be following up on that. 17 MS. NORTON: Great. I appreciate that. 18 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: I'm sorry. Go 19 ahead. 20 MS. NORTON: We saw no dust 21 partitions, which were alleged in the DOE protocol. 22 Children were at times in the same room when the 23 windows were being removed, which is obviously not 24 part of the protocol. We have reports of kids in the 25 after school program being in the cafeteria while 239 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 the windows were being taken out. 3 We didn't see workers wearing any 4 respirators. There was no air testing for PCBs 5 during or after the window removal, which I believe 6 is part of the protocol that was forwarded to our 7 PTA. 8 So, we're concerned about our kids, 9 our teachers, especially four pregnant teachers, the 10 custodial staff who cleaned up everyday, and workers 11 on this job. And, yes, kids were cleaning up the 12 dust in some classrooms. 13 I want to get to what happened at the 14 end of March. The Daily News Article came out, the 15 test results showed that the exterior doors in our 16 school had a hit of 225,000 PCB level. On March 29th 17 and 30th, the DOE came into our school and did wipe 18 and air tests. There was PCB dust found all over the 19 school, and the cafeteria came up with a significant 20 hit of 560 nanograms per cubic meter. 21 On April 4th and 5th the school was 22 closed down for the weekend for an emergency 23 clean-up, and the tests were redone and the 24 cafeteria level was, according to the DOE, 25 non-detect, which means below 500. 240 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 So, the DOE and the DOH deemed the 3 school safe for kids and staff. 4 In mid-April, our PTA hired a private 5 consultant to review the DOE tests, which were 6 released to us by the press, the DOE tests I'm 7 talking about. We had asked the DOE to release them 8 to us, but the PR Department released them to the 9 Daily News before they released them to the parents, 10 which I also found to be problematic. 11 Our consultant's opinion is that the 12 DOE tests were not sensitive enough for children. 13 Review of the literature shows much lower levels, 50 14 to 100 nanograms per cubic meter, are used to assess 15 PCB contamination in other school settings, like the 16 Boston Public Schools, and U Mass Graduate School, 17 which has an adult population. 18 Today we got some test results from, 19 parents went into the school and took ten samples, 20 actually they took 36 samples but we have the 21 results of ten samples. Physical samples from the 22 school. We show rug contamination. Every classroom 23 has a rug that the teachers use for the children to 24 sit on everybody. That is above what is considered 25 normal background levels for a classroom. We have 241 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 window caulking on the inside of the school coming 3 up as 281, that 100,000 level of PPMs on toxicity, 4 and these samples came obviously after the cleaning. 5 So, the contractors cleaned and then DOE came in and 6 cleaned, and so that we don't know what kind of 7 toxicity levels were on the rugs when the kids were 8 sitting on that during before the DOE cleaning. 9 The chemist from the independent lab 10 said that these results are significantly higher 11 than background levels seen in normal classrooms. 12 Bob Herrick, who was sitting over here this 13 afternoon, agreed that these levels should trigger a 14 full-scale testing of our school. So, that's air 15 testing, that's wipe samples, that's not testing for 16 90 minutes. DOE tested our cafeteria for 90 minutes. 17 We were told children should be in the school, you 18 should get a 24-hour test, air changes. We need to 19 know more than has already been done. 20 Presently, our PTA is ready to pursue 21 more sensitive tests. Our PTA has granted us a 22 budget to try to do this, but the question is, 23 should we as parents, for the money that we raise 24 for our children, be buying books or should we be 25 doing PCB testing? 242 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 I would say buying books, and it was 3 a hard fight for some people to agree to get this 4 testing done but for those who believe there is a 5 big risk with PCBs, we did get it past. 6 We want to evaluate the extent of 7 remediation necessary to rid of our school of the 8 toxic PCBs. 9 PS 199 awaits a request to the DOE to 10 produce toxic waste disposal documentation of the 11 school windows. That's been pending for 26 days. We 12 want to know where is the documentation that those 13 windows were toxic? Where are they? We'd actually 14 like to find them, because we'd like to test them to 15 see what was the level of caulking, because we found 16 out about this after the windows were gone. 17 It's a mystery as to where that 18 documentation is. 19 That is an enforceable EPA standard 20 that those windows were disposed of as toxic waste. 21 So, that is clearly something that we still need to 22 get. 23 We as parents call for an 24 investigation into the removal window project done 25 at PS 199 from the City, the State and federal 243 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 agencies. 3 This is not a burden that parents 4 should be left with. Our kids' health and safety is 5 at stake. Based on the breakdowns in protocol, the 6 DOE and DOH cannot make claims that our school is 7 safe for kids, staff and parents. 8 We as parents are outraged that this 9 could have occurred. We want prompt, swift action 10 taken to properly evaluate the extent of our program 11 at our school, and remediation to occur under the 12 guidance of outside agencies. 13 Thank you. 14 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Well, I wish 15 that the Department of Education had heard your 16 testimony first so that -- 17 MS. NORTON: I do, too. They all 18 walked out when they were finished. Which isn't very 19 nice to parents. 20 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Yes, but also I 21 wish that you would have given me that testimony 22 before that so that I could question them about it. 23 But obviously their staff is here, they took notes, 24 and we're going to be following up on that. 25 Have you submitted your testimony 244 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 into the record? I know you read it -- 3 MS. NORTON: Yes. 4 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: But do we have 5 copies of that? We do? 6 MS. NORTON: I have not submitted it 7 to the record. 8 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Can you provide 9 us copies? 10 MS. NORTON: Sure. 11 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: We'll make 12 copies now, and if you want to take your copy, 13 unless you have it in your computer? 14 MS. NORTON: Yes. No, I can do that. 15 It just has some marks on it, but I could give you a 16 clean copy or I could give you what I have right 17 now. 18 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Give us what you 19 have right now. That's good. 20 MS. NORTON: Okay. 21 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: We'd like to 22 have it now. 23 MS. NORTON: Okay. 24 So, I guess we can talk about how to 25 follow-up with this so that our school stays in 245 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 communication with the Council and can work towards 3 this issue. 4 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Yes. Gale Brewer 5 is a Council member -- 6 MS. NORTON: Yes. 7 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: She does an 8 excellent job. 9 MS. NORTON: Okay. 10 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And we'll follow 11 up on that with Counsel and the Education Committee 12 staff, with DOE and SCA. 13 MS. NORTON: Great. Thank you very 14 much. 15 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: I have a 16 question. Have you gotten back any, I asked earlier 17 about the soil. 18 MS. NORTON: Yes. 19 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Have you 20 gotten any answers on that? 21 MS. NORTON: There was some 22 preliminary testing we got back that said there was 23 positive hits on the East Side of the school. We 24 haven't received the actual test results, and I know 25 that more testing was done within the last ten days 246 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 and we haven't received those results. 3 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay. 4 And the other question I have is, do 5 you now have a piece of paper that gives us protocol 6 for wiping down any dust? 7 Is that something that we have on the 8 premises. 9 MS. NORTON: I don't know about on the 10 premises. 11 The DOE forwarded to the PTA upon 12 their request two different protocols. One for dust 13 control, and I don't remember exactly what the other 14 one was for, but clearly I don't think anyone from 15 the construction company has looked at it or been 16 trained to follow it. 17 COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Okay, thank 18 you very much. 19 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Thank you. 20 MS. NORTON: Okay, thank you. 21 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And next we will 22 hear from Daniel Lefkowitz, invited expert witness. 23 Dave Palmer and Miranda Massie from New York Lawyers 24 for Public Interest. Peter Levounis, M.D., American 25 Psychiatric Association. Is Peter here? Petros, I'm 247 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 sorry. And Andre Kolodny, Maimonides American 3 Psychiatric. Please sit down. And Susan Whitley, 4 M.D., Einstein College. Are you here, Susan? No. And 5 Dr. Stephan Ross, the Director of Alcoholism and 6 Drug Abuse Division, Bellevue Hospital Center, are 7 you here? No? Okay, why don't we go with these 8 three. Go ahead, whoever goes first. 9 Dr. Petros Levounis, M.D., American 10 Psychiatric Association. 11 MR. PALMER: I guess I will go first. 12 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: I'm sorry, sir, 13 what is your name? 14 MR. LEFKOWITZ: Daniel Lefkowitz. 15 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. Go ahead. 16 MR. PALMER: I guess it's good evening 17 at this point. 18 My name is Dave Palmer with New York 19 Lawyers for the Public Interest. I'm a staff 20 attorney. With me is a new senior attorney at New 21 York Lawyers, Miranda Massie, who is going to be 22 focusing on this issue. 23 I wanted to thank you first for your 24 leadership on this issue. We appreciate you putting 25 together this hearing so quickly. 248 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 It's an important issue. 3 As you know, our organization 4 represents a number of community organizations 5 facing issues related to the siting of schools on 6 contaminated properties, and as a result they're 7 given work on this. 8 We have received a number of calls 9 from parents and teachers and concerned which is 10 what triggered our looking into this issue, and on 11 behalf of them we've begun to research some of the 12 exposure risks associated with the PCB contaminated 13 caulking in schools. Some of the health outcomes 14 that may be related to exposure, some of the gaps in 15 information and some pertinent legal avenues for 16 addressing the PCB concern, if needed, and Miranda 17 is going to present some of that. 18 I guess I'll just pass the mike, but 19 say that first and foremost, obviously, as with all 20 of our work on toxic schools, we hope to see a 21 precautionary approach, similar to what Brandy 22 Weingarten was saying, precautionary approach taken 23 by the responsible agencies with an eye towards 24 protecting children's health. 25 MS. MASSIE: Hi, again. I'm Miranda 249 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Massie, Senior Staff Attorney, New York Lawyers for 3 the Public Interest. I want to thank both of you and 4 also Chairman Gioia for the energy that you've shown 5 in addressing this issue and the leadership that 6 you've shown in recognizing it is an urgent public 7 health matter. 8 I'm going to make just a handful of 9 quick points. 10 You have in front of you our written 11 testimony. I'm not going to read any part of that, 12 because you have it, so... 13 Let me, though, direct you to a list, 14 which is a very partial list, of articles on page 15 five. Bob Herrick of the Harvard School of Public 16 Health referred in a summary way to some of the 17 research that's being done. I just wanted to make 18 sure that you are aware that there is a growing body 19 of research on the impact of very low levels of 20 exposure of PCBs. You don't have to be a pregnant 21 woman eating highly contaminated fish, there are 22 measurable, immune, and neurological impacts of low 23 levels of exposure. You can find this on page five. 24 I want to talk about money. Up in 25 Yorktown there has been a reference to the letter 250 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 that written to Dr. Lefkowitz. In that school 3 district, the Board of Ed has sued Monsonto, which 4 is the sole manufacturer of PCBs in the United 5 States, to recoup the cost of having cleaned up 6 there. 7 I'm sure Dr. Lefkowitz will say more 8 about that. I just want to make the point that cost 9 obviously is driving some of the thinking about this 10 issue. It shouldn't be. Nobody here is trying to 11 bankrupt the Board of Ed. 12 The solution, the only way forward to 13 ensure that we're not adding to the risks that 14 children face from environmental contaminants, is to 15 test the caulk itself. 16 Bluntly, air tests and wipe tests can 17 give us some useful information, but they are not a 18 substitute for testing the source of the 19 contamination itself. And there is no excuse, in our 20 view, for an approach that does not include 21 immediate testing of the caulk in the schools that 22 were built in the relevant time period. That has to 23 happen post-haste. 24 Caulk has to be replaced where it's 25 found to be contaminated with PCBs. There is a 251 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 background issue here that Mr. Kraft and I were 3 taking up outside from the Toxic Section of the EPA 4 about whether regulation starts at 50 parts per 5 million or whether there is a zero tolerance 6 approach as you were suggesting earlier, Council 7 Member Jackson. 8 Our position is that there is in the 9 current regulations, in the current statute, a zero 10 tolerance approach. 11 I don't think we need to wrestle that 12 to the ground this evening. The main thing is, where 13 there is caulking that contains more than 50 parts 14 per million PCBs, and we know that that is the case 15 in presumably a relatively large number of schools, 16 because six of the nine schools that were tested by 17 an independent lab, the findings at that lab may not 18 have been questioned by anyone that I have heard or 19 read on six of the nine schools, fully two-thirds of 20 the schools where they tested the caulk, it came 21 back at over 50 parts per million. 22 I want to remind you, I know that you 23 know this, but 50 parts per million is toxic waste 24 in common parlance. It's bulk PCB waste. 25 That caulk needs to be replaced. 252 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 There is an increasing body of literature on how you 3 do replacement safely. Obviously, that is a vexed 4 issue. It's not just a made-up issue, but there are 5 also rational approaches to it that are being 6 developed progressively. 7 One last point, and then I'll close. 8 You heard a bit of the letter, when Veronica 9 Vanterpool testified she read part of the letter 10 that Dr. Grayber, who now works for the Department 11 of Health wrote to Dr. Lefkowitz. I want to make a 12 point of comparison. 13 In the first sampling that was done 14 of caulk at the French Hill Elementary school in 15 Yorktown, they found 38,000 parts per million, which 16 is high. Until you consider that at PS 199 they 17 found 250,000 parts per million, so six times as 18 much. 19 And this doctor in 2008, now, to be 20 blunt its current employer, is saying it's no 21 problem, it's like eating a buttered English Muffin, 22 whereas four years ago he was taking about the risk 23 for the students who spend from 35 to 50 hours per 24 week in and around the facility and so on. 25 We can provide you with copies of the 253 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 letters. If you want any of the scientific articles 3 that are listed on pages five and six, please 4 contact us. We want to help the Council move this 5 issue forward in any way that we can. 6 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay, thank you. 7 DR. LEFKOWITZ: I have a long 8 presentation. 9 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Well, I hope 10 we're not here all night, but go ahead. 11 DR. LEFKOWITZ: No, actually I have 12 slides to really bring out this whole point. 13 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay, go ahead. 14 DR. LEFKOWITZ: I'm Daniel Lefkowitz, 15 a resident of Yorktown Heights. I'm a retired 16 podiatrist, an activist. I'm head of the Westchester 17 County PCB Task Force, and the one who found the 18 contamination at French Hill in 2004, that really 19 spurred this whole chain of events. And I would like 20 to run through what happened at French Hill, the 21 events with EPA and what led up to today. 22 Here is French Hill School, built in 23 1969. How I discovered PCBs, in 2004 I read Dr. 24 Herrick's study. It was called an unrecognized 25 source of PCB contamination in schools and 254 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 buildings. 3 So, I was curious. I said, well, my 4 son's school was built in '69. It had the windows 5 removed in 2003, the year before, was there 6 contaminated caulking. So, I called the EPA up and I 7 said, hey, this is the situation, what do I do? And 8 they suggested go around the school and find a piece 9 of caulking. 10 Well, I walked around the school, and 11 there was caulking all over the place, because they 12 did the windows the year before and the contractors 13 were so incredibly unprofessional that they left 14 caulking on the ground. 15 So, I picked up a piece of caulking, 16 I sent it to the lab, and it came -- here is a piece 17 of caulking that was on the ground, and it came back 18 38,000 parts per million of ara cholora (phonetic) 19 1260. It was 760 times the EPA's allowable limit. 20 So, I contacted Westchester County 21 Department of Health with the results, and they 22 contacted the school and said go pick up the 23 caulking. 24 So, I contacted the Health Department 25 and said, well, what about the soil and the indoor 255 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 environment? They said there is no risk. 3 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: The Department 4 of Health said there is no risk? 5 DR. LEFKOWITZ: Yes, they said there 6 is no problem. 7 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay, go ahead. 8 DR. LEFKOWITZ: So, I went back and I 9 did my own soil testing and it came back 280 parts 10 per million, and this was under a pile of caulking 11 and New York State's Clean Up Level is one part per 12 million. 13 So, the Health Department, the 14 Westchester County Health Department ordered them to 15 put fencing around, and with the guidance of EPA, 16 DEC, and State, they had to come up with a 17 remediation program. 18 Here is the school, and you can see 19 the contamination levels. The highest level is 40 20 parts per million in one section of the school, and 21 there is only one area that was below standard, 22 which is .6, .96 parts per million. 23 Yorktown had to remove 1,130 tons, or 24 591 cubic yards of contaminated soil. Soil was 25 abated ten feet from the entire perimeter of the 256 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 building, except for one section that was 40 feet 3 away. 4 This is in the New York Times, and 5 July 4th, 2005, from Barbara Whitaker. And this is 6 what it states: 7 "In what State health officials call 8 the first cleanup of its kind in the State, a school 9 district in Westchester County is planning to remove 10 soil next to an elementary school in Yorktown 11 Heights because the soil is contaminated by PCBs 12 from caulking in the school's windows. 13 A spokesman for the State Department 14 of Health said the cleanup was the first the agency 15 was aware of involving PCB contamination from 16 caulk." 17 That's me and my son, a good looking 18 kid. 19 Well, they remediated the soil and 20 then there was post remediation testing, and they 21 noticed that there was contamination on the exterior 22 of the building. And if you look at the exterior 23 wipes, one, room 223 windowpane had 10.9, micrograms 24 per 100 sonometer squared, and another one on the 25 windowsill had 34. They did interior wipes, and 257 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 everything was below the EPA standard. 3 They did a caulk wipe, came out 4 22,700. 5 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: What do you mean 6 by caulk wipe? 7 DR. LEFKOWITZ: What they do, they 8 take a hexane wipe and they wipe over a certain 9 amount of caulking and they analyze how much PCB is 10 coming out. 11 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: So, in essence, 12 the caulking in the windowpane, they take a -- 13 DR. LEFKOWITZ: It wasn't windowpane, 14 it was a column. 15 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: A column. 16 DR. LEFKOWITZ: A column. I'll show 17 you. 18 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Before I follow 19 you, what column? What do you mean by that? 20 DR. LEFKOWITZ: Oh, in front of the 21 school building. 22 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 23 DR. LEFKOWITZ: Actually, let me go 24 back. 25 If you look on -- this is a bad 258 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 picture, but on the front right-hand section, you'll 3 see a brick column. 4 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Yes, okay. 5 DR. LEFKOWITZ: That's at the front 6 entrance. 7 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. So, that's 8 what you mean by the column. 9 DR. LEFKOWITZ: Right. There was an 10 expansion joint. 11 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay, very good. 12 DR. LEFKOWITZ: Okay, let me go back 13 here. 14 Okay, so what the school had to do, 15 they decontaminated the outside of the building. 16 Now, the consultant said the 17 contamination could have been from dusting from the 18 post-remediation work. It could have been from the 19 migration of the caulking that was from the original 20 window, but they decontaminated the exterior of the 21 windows and the window sills and some of the doors. 22 And I could tell you, my school, this 23 is Yorktown Heights, they kept it quiet from the 24 public. There were no signs, no fencing, no warning 25 signs to keep the kids away from the doors or from 259 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 the windows. 3 So, the question here is, now that 4 they remediated the soil, and the interior of the 5 building, what about the caulk? 6 So, this is a wide picture of the 7 caulking at the column. But if you take a close look 8 you can see chalk marks on it. Kids go up there, 9 they write on it, they pick at it, they rub their 10 hands on it. Of course, this is where kids, they 11 stand in line in the front of the school. 12 Now, here is another photo of the 13 French Hill School, and there is caulking around the 14 doors. Caulking around the base of the column, 15 sidewalk caulking. This is all considered as 16 contaminated caulking. 17 Here is PCB caulking around the air 18 vents at the French Hill School. Here it is in back 19 of the school. You can see chalk marks, and this is 20 where kids play. There is contaminated caulking at 21 the sidewalk joints. 22 Here are chalk marks made by a child 23 on caulking. You could see that the caulking is 24 deteriorating. Here is caulking inside the building 25 in the front entrance. Now you could see the brick 260 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 column. You see the green paints? Well, the school 3 decided to encapsulate it. So what they did, they 4 put some new caulking on top of it, and they put 5 some paints, so in case if it peels through, they 6 can determine whether there is penetration through 7 it. 8 They also went about ten feet up on 9 other parts of the building because they figured, 10 well, no one is going to reach higher than ten feet. 11 But you can see the line of caulk extending upward. 12 There is only one problem with that. 13 It's illegal. You're not allowed to encapsulate 14 caulking. Under federal law, you've got to remove 15 it. 16 The use of PCBs in caulking and 17 sealing materials is illegal and has never been 18 authorized by the EPA. PCB-contaminated caulking 19 cannot be encapsulated. 20 So, what did the school do? They 21 complained to Senator Schumer. They felt they were 22 being unfairly targeted by the EPA. They're saying, 23 well, why are you picking on us? You know, this 24 caulking was there, you know, it was illegal before 25 1976, '77. You know, a lot of schools have it, why 261 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 do we have to remove it? So, they sent a letter to 3 Senator Schumer, and this was EPA's response to 4 Senator Schumer. 5 "In this case our response has been 6 primarily focused on reducing or eliminating the 7 potential health risks of the children and personnel 8 of the French Hill as a result of the presence of 9 PCBs. The presence of PCBs in schools is of 10 particular concern, because PCBs are considered 11 developmental toxins. 12 The continued presence or use of 13 caulk, which at French Hills is contaminated with 14 PCBs is 60,000 parts per million, is prohibited by 15 the Toxic Substance Control Act. The use of PCBs in 16 caulk is not an authorized use and thus is a 17 violation of section 6 (e) of TSCA." 18 One other paragraph in their letter: 19 "When EPA has become aware of PCB-contaminated 20 materials in other school buildings, the subsequent 21 discussions with those schools have resulted in the 22 reduction of PCB-contaminated substances from the 23 building or structure in accordance with the federal 24 PCB regulations, including the removal of 25 PCB-containing caulking and paint from window frames 262 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 and the reduction of PCBs in contaminated porous 3 masonry material." 4 In 2005, the EPA met with Westchester 5 County had met with Westchester County over this 6 issue, and this was the letter the EPA sent to 7 Westchester County. 8 The use of PCBs in caulking and 9 sealant material has never been authorized by the 10 EPA. I'm just kind of repeating what was said 11 before. Therefore, the prospect of authorizing the 12 continued use of this material in residential 13 settings or where children could be exposed is 14 extremely likely. Because it is illegal and the 15 potential for exposure may be significant, 16 PCB-containing caulk must be removed upon discovery. 17 No ifs, ands, and no buts. 18 So, what does Yorktown School do? 19 They negotiate with the EPA and in 2007, during a 20 capital project they removed the caulking around the 21 building. They removed 180 linear feet of 22 contaminated sidewalk caulking. 23 And I'm not even sure how the 24 abatement procedure was done because I wasn't 25 present at the time. 263 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 And the question I have is, does 3 Yorktown School District sample the soil or the 4 brick? Because we know that PCBs can migrate into 5 brick and does migrate it out to the soil. 6 So, in October 2007, Yorktown decides 7 to sue Monsanto, and here is part of the case. 8 Yorktown Board of Education retained 9 the law firm of Kennedy and Madonna to bring legal 10 action against various defendants, including 11 Monsanto company for damages incurred by the 12 Yorktown School district, as a result of PDB 13 contaminated caulking and other materials in the 14 districts and buildings. 15 So, where do I fit into this? In 16 2004, I discover contamination. I figure well, if 17 it's at my school, it's at other schools. So, I 18 created a website called www.pcbinschools.org., 19 which I think is a pretty informative website. It 20 has sampling reports from many of the locations. 21 It's got studies. Media articles. It's got 22 documentation from the EPA. Documentation from New 23 York State, and other pieces of information. 24 Here are locations for PCB caulking. 25 We have the schools from New York, 199, 30, 178, 264 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 131, 181, 160, 153, 86. What are the locations? We 3 had French Hill, Ben Franklin in Shrub Oak, in 4 Westchester, University of Rhode Island, U Mass in 5 Amherst, East Ramapo Central Schools in Rockland, 6 Putnam Valley Middle School, SUNY Oswego. In 7 Massachusetts we have Catholic High School, 8 Burlington High School in Massachusetts, Mount Sinai 9 Hospital. We have a couple of dams throughout the 10 United States and Co-Op City in the Bronx. 11 If you look for it, you will find it. 12 So, my experience with Yorktown is they don't want 13 to look for it because they don't want to pay for 14 the cost of remediation, and they're always worried 15 about lawsuits. So why should they look for it? 16 There is no mandate to test. 17 I contacted my State Senator. This 18 was around 2005, and I had a conversation with him. 19 I said, what's the possibility of mandating testing? 20 Getting a mandated legislative bill through the 21 Senate. He said, and I'm paraphrasing, but this is 22 pretty much what he said, it will never pass the 23 State Senate. It will be considered an unfunded 24 mandate and there is no money for it. 25 And I'm going to tell you, in 2005, I 265 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 had met with Assemblyman DiNapoli a number of times. 3 I went up to their office and his office was going 4 to introduce legislation to mandate testing, and we 5 had met with the Department of Health and the State 6 Education Department, and we had a meeting with 7 them, and Assemblyman DiNapoli's office was saying, 8 we're looking for information and we want to 9 introduce legislation. Unfortunately, Assemblyman 10 DiNapoli became the Comptroller, so he's not 11 available. 12 In the spring of 2007, SED came out 13 with these protocol guidelines, there is no mandated 14 testing for PCBs. 15 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: You have to come 16 to closure, because we have other witnesses and 17 we've got to get out of here. 18 DR. LEFKOWITZ: Okay. Let me jump 19 around. 20 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. 21 DR. LEFKOWITZ: Real quick. 22 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: But it's 23 interesting what you're doing, because you're going 24 through a whole process and let me tell you we 25 appreciate that. 266 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 DR. LEFKOWITZ: Okay. 3 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: And if you have 4 a powerpoint that you can give to us, we would like 5 to have it. 6 DR. LEFKOWITZ: I will give it to you. 7 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Okay. Go ahead. 8 DR. LEFKOWITZ: Okay. Well, one of the 9 problems I had with the State Education Guidelines 10 is these Guidelines are recommendations. There is no 11 mandate to test, and when you're talking about small 12 maintenance projects, you're going to have a 13 maintenance guy or a contractor do work, he's not 14 going to test the materials. He's going to do his 15 job and that's going to be the end of it and no one 16 is going to be watching. 17 This is repeating. Here is the column 18 in front. I just wanted to give a demonstration of 19 what was going on. Here is the caulking where kids 20 were touching, and this is the sample. 21 This sample of caulking at 60,000 22 parts per million, 60,000 PPMs, the wipe sample was 23 22,700, the EPA standard is ten. 24 So, even if you want to use a one 25 percent rate, say, look, hexane is a very aggressive 267 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 solvent, it's still 227 micrograms, it's still way 3 above and kids were touching this, and this is why I 4 feel that there has got to be a mandated testing, 5 testing for PCBs. 6 Even though you look at a piece of 7 caulking and it looks intact. There have been 8 demonstrations, there have been studies where this 9 stuff comes out and it contaminates the indoor 10 environments. 11 Here is another school with PCB 12 contaminated caulking and they've got kids playing 13 right next to it. This is the Ben Franklin School. 14 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Can you 15 conclude, if you don't mind, please. 16 DR. LEFKOWITZ: All right, I'm going 17 to conclude right here. 18 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Thank you. 19 DR. LEFKOWITZ: Okay. 20 Okay, so, the thing here, we know 21 that children have different susceptibility to 22 health effects, to PCBs, and the question I always 23 have, why do we apply PCB regulatory action levels 24 to children that were meant for adult males? Even 25 though we hear the fact that PCBs in air is a small 268 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 amount of contamination in children, when you 3 consider the body burden, we're increasing the body 4 burden to total human exposure, and when you 5 consider that the amount of PCBs in food has 6 diminished, then you need to diminish all sources. 7 And if you read the World Health Organization, they 8 state in the literature that it's important to 9 control known sources, as well as to identify new 10 sources. So, why would we still allow PCBs, a known 11 toxin, to remain in our school buildings? And what 12 I'm asking for, I know we can't get it over here, 13 but we need federal legislation to mandate testing 14 in all schools and funding for remediation. 15 And that's it. 16 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Well, thank you. 17 As a parent, parent-to-parent, you're doing an 18 excellent job in representing children, and also 19 communicating to everyone what needs to be done. 20 So, if you can supply us with that, 21 that would be great. 22 DR. LEFKOWITZ: I will give it to you. 23 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: That would be 24 great, your powerpoint presentation. 25 Do we have any other witnesses? 269 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Stephanie Duree? Who is here to 3 testify? Please come forward. Anyone else here to 4 testify? Please come forward. Yes, come on up. Joe? 5 Anyone else? Is there anyone else here to testify? 6 This is the last panel. Okay, thank you, sir. 7 Joe and Stephanie, please. Come on. 8 Stephanie, you may begin. 9 MS. TYREE: Okay, thank you. Thank you 10 for staying so late. I know we have all been here 11 for a very long time, so I'll try to keep my 12 comments very brief. 13 I'm here today not as a parent, not 14 as a health expert, but on behalf of Northern 15 Manhattan communities. I'm Stephanie Tyree. I'm 16 Sustainable Policy Coordinator with WeACT for 17 Environmental Justice. 18 I'd just like to speak briefly today 19 about the environmental justice concerns, about PCBs 20 in public schools. 21 So, environmental justice communities 22 like Northern Manhattan are some of the most 23 vulnerable in our City. Residents in these 24 communities are exposed to toxins every day in their 25 air, water and homes. 270 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 We shouldn't lose sight of the daily 3 overloads of toxins that New York City children are 4 exposed to from a range of places. 5 As my colleague, Ms. Vanterpool, 6 stated earlier, we're talking about multiple daily 7 exposures that create aggregate impacts on our most 8 vulnerable populations. Leaving caulking in schools 9 that have PCB levels that are hundreds or even 10 thousands of times higher than EPA permitted levels 11 is an unconscionable exposure of New York City 12 school children to toxins. 13 There's been a lot of conversation 14 here today about what is a safe level of PCBs. 15 Studies have found that PCB exposure compromises the 16 immune system, making individuals more susceptible 17 to disease. These same studies could not find a low 18 enough level of exposure at which these impacts did 19 not occur. 20 I'm no expert, but that means to me 21 that there is no safe level of PCB exposure. The 22 importance of these scientific findings can't be 23 understated. Placing our City's children in schools 24 with PCBs exposes them to unsafe level of toxins. 25 The irony, of course, is that New York City's school 271 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 system is educating children in toxic environments 3 that have direct impacts on their learning 4 development, not to mention their general health. 5 PCBs negatively impact all children 6 equally. It's unreasonable to leave these toxic 7 materials in any school, whether it's in Yorktown 8 Heights, West Harlem or Co-Op City. I'm not here to 9 suggest that City agencies and the EPA are less 10 concerned about some children than others, 11 particularly after hearing the earlier testimony 12 which seems to indicate that our regulatory agencies 13 are failing all children equally. 14 I just want to conclude by expressing 15 my deep appreciation of the extent of the City 16 Council's concern about this issue, and it's 17 understanding of the gravity that has been shown by 18 Council members today. 19 This is a public health emergency. 20 I'm confident that with the 21 leadership that I've seen here today, efforts are 22 going to begin immediately to address this problem. 23 Thank you. 24 CHAIRPERSON JACKSON: Thank you. 25 And last but not least. 272 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 Joe, welcome. 3 MR. MUGIVAN: Joe Mugivan, advocate 4 for School Indoor Air Quality and New York City 5 school teacher. 6 My concern before your Committee, and 7 thank you very much for having me, involves the 8 unwillingness of those in authority to investigate 9 toxic situations in schools and the unwritten policy 10 of indicating that a school is safe without 11 appropriate independent monitoring. 12 In the recent PCB reports published 13 in the New York Daily News, there seems to be a code 14 of silence and an urgency to report that a school is 15 safe prematurely when federal law indicates that no 16 exposure to PCBs is permitted. 17 In October of 2003, five years ago, I 18 walked out of my classroom in Elmhurst Queens 19 because there were toxic fumes or vapors which were 20 making me sick. The teacher in the classroom before 21 me reported a similar event. We both had medical 22 records requesting an inspection. 23 Initially I thought of informing the 24 parents, then realized that without a reliable 25 report the school would indicate that the classroom 273 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 was safe. 3 Despite being protected under federal 4 occupational safety health laws, my salary was 5 discontinued. 6 I discovered that a toxic spill had 7 been reported at the print factory next to my school 8 three months before entering the school. The spill 9 consisted of three carcinogenic chemicals, but more 10 disturbing was a report that the local water table 11 had extremely high levels of dangerous chlorinated 12 solvents known as "TLC." 13 I obtained all the engineering 14 reports that indicated that groundwater was entering 15 the basement throughout and that all of the 16 compressors of the ventilation system were supposed 17 to have been replaced in 2003. 18 There was no public alarm. Since 19 vapor intrusion above a water table can be up to 100 20 times more dangerous than simple toxic exposure, I 21 wrote a letter to the lead state agencies on vapor 22 intrusion asking for an inspection, suspecting a 23 possible health crisis in the school. I have yet to 24 receive a response from my letter of December 6, 25 2007. 274 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 The new capital budget for PS 7 in 3 Elmhurst Queens calls for repairing the foundation 4 and groundwater intrusion into the basement. A 5 recent posting of the job number by a real estate 6 website places the cost at $8 million. 7 After five years, no one has been 8 able to provide an air quality report for my 9 suspicion of vapor intrusion. 10 In the Queens Court, my attorney 11 requested through discovery all environmental 12 information, more than a year ago and the City has 13 refused to provide it. 14 I filed an OSHA request under federal 15 law to the Department of Education for all 16 environmental reports on the school, and the federal 17 law was ignored. 18 The City Council called for a review 19 of my concern through the Department of Education, 20 and it was ignored. 21 In closing, without reliable and 22 independent air quality reports, I am concerned that 23 generations of elementary children in their 24 informative years may be spending their waking hours 25 sitting in a cloud of toxins with no independent 275 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 monitoring. 3 I believe that the State should 4 monitor all schools for health reasons, as well as 5 for the academic requirements that are currently 6 mandated. 7 Thank you very much. 8 CHAIRPERSON GENNARO: Thank you, Joe. 9 I appreciate seeing you, and all of the witnesses 10 that stayed so long and were so patient. 11 I will state for the record that we 12 received testimony from State Senator Tom Duane from 13 Manhattan, Borough President Carrion from the Bronx. 14 And I'd like to thank Chairman 15 Jackson for his leadership and great question, and 16 the staff of the Committee for their diligence in 17 getting us here, it was a long hearing, it was a big 18 undertaking. And I'd like to thank Ross Holden. That 19 is your last name, Holden? for staying for the 20 entire hearing, as well, and the other members of 21 the Administration. 22 So, we had high-level people here in 23 attendance throughout the whole thing to get the 24 benefit of this good testimony, and this is both 25 recognized and appreciated by the Committees, and 276 1 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, INVESTIGATIONS AND EDUCATION 2 thank you. 3 And with no one else wishing to be 4 heard, this hearing is adjourned. 5 (Hearing concluded at 6:25 p.m.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 277 1 2 CERTIFICATION 3 4 5 STATE OF NEW YORK ) 6 COUNTY OF NEW YORK ) 7 8 9 I, LENORE NAGLE, do hereby certify 10 that the foregoing is a true and accurate transcript 11 of the within proceeding. 12 I further certify that I am not 13 related to any of the parties to this action by 14 blood or marriage, and that I am in no way 15 interested in the outcome of this matter. 16 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 17 set my hand this 29th day of April 2008. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 --------------------- 25 LENORE NAGLE 278 1 2 C E R T I F I C A T I O N 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I, LENORE NAGLE, do hereby certify the 10 aforesaid to be a true and accurate copy of the 11 transcription of the audio tapes of this hearing. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ----------------------- LENORE NAGLE 23 24 25